Value - value - value!

[TJD]

I don't often post hands but I think that I need to get my value betting and aggression up a notch. Is this a place to do it or is caution justified after the 2 cold calls on the flop? I could find an argument for playing every street differently.

<font color="blue"> SB is 74/31; is average in terms of aggression, too loose post flop but is not a tricky player</font>

<font color="blue">BB is 61/6; is not very aggressive, moderately loose post flop and not seen enough to know about his trickines </font>

<font color="blue"> UTG is 67/29 and is similar in style to the BB post flop</font>

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Should I raise anywhere here and should I bet the river?

Trevor

[wheelz]

You should raise the turn. Yes bet the river. A straight isn't very likely to check here.

[Jeff W]

1. Waiting till the turn is acceptable on this board because your opponents have a lot of collective outs. However, you should raise the turn. The 2s is a great card for your equity and you should raise for value.

2. Given the action so far, you have to make an easy value bet on the river. Someone holding a straight would be likely to bet and you will be called by a pair of 8s or 7s or even weaker hands given those opponent profiles.

[stripsqueez]

bit of a shocker not to put more bets in when you have a decent overpair - i probably couldnt resist the flop 3 bet but if i did i definately raise the turn - as it is i definately bet the river

nice table

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[spydog]

It looks like SB's CR is an effort to protect his hand. Since so many cards could fall on the turn that would scare him into checking (AKQ, etc..) I think a flop 3-bet is better than waiting for the turn. However, since you didn't 3-bet and he did lead the turn, then you must pop it with a raise.

Value bet the river.

[kahntrutahn]

I think I 3B that most of the time, but I agree with the others, raise the turn, and value bet the river.

On a side note, I play 1/2 so that is how I treat donks with stats like that.... but do people like that exist in 5/10? I mean, I thought that was pretty much limited to PP 1/2... if 5/10 is that juicy, Ill be stepping up!

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I 3B that most of the time, but I agree with the others, raise the turn, and value bet the river.

On a side note, I play 1/2 so that is how I treat donks with stats like that.... but do people like that exist in 5/10? I mean, I thought that was pretty much limited to PP 1/2... if 5/10 is that juicy, Ill be stepping up!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easy to say 'raise the turn' because we know a brick hits. Villian may not lead on the turn if an Ace, King, or Queen hits.

[kahntrutahn]

Yea... thats why I think I 3B the flop here 60-70%... but then again, a good point was made against all the outs possibly against you, so perhaps waiting until the turn is the better plan. I am no expert /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[djoyce003]

I would play this by raising the turn. I also check behind on the river because anyone holding a 4 isn't going to bet it here, and someone holding a 4 or a 9 is fairly likely given the large number of chasers ag PP...especially with stats like these guys. Raise the turn though.

[fyodor]

I would normally wait for the turn to put in the next raise here. Once they've both called 2 cold on the flop, you know they aren't folding for 1 more, so you won't be cleaning up any outs or anything. If you are ahead there is probably only one more raise going in, so you may as well do it on a bigger street. Also get to see the turn card first and it may change your mind. ie an Ace comes, SB bets and UTG raises.

Anyhow on the river if I was worried at all it wouldn't be about the straight, more concerned about SB having 2 pair and him being afraid of the straight. However he is more likely to have A8, A7 or the like. I bet my Jacks.

[TJD]

Thx all,

The consensus seems to be that I have to get a raise in somewhere.

There are valid arguments for:-

flop (they might not bet the turn if a scare card comes)

and

turn (especially when such a lovely blank falls - they WILL have a lot of combined outs!)


I think I lean towards the turn raise when I hope I will have more equity.

Like Fyodor, I did not fear the str8 on the river; I think they would have bet it. However, with UTG being not very aggressive and still there, I too wondered whether UTG had 2 pair or whether SB had 2 pair or a set but was scared of the str8. However, I think I MUST bet.

For those who raise turn, what do you do if reraised?

For all the river betters... "Hero bets and when raised.....?"

Thanks

Results after this....

Trevor

[fyodor]

In either case the pot is large enough to call. I have a note attached to my own profile that says: "Don't fold to idiots" I think SB's stats qualifies him as an idiot.

[kahntrutahn]

[ QUOTE ]
For those who raise turn, what do you do if reraised?

[/ QUOTE ]


Call Down...

[TJD]

OK - if reraised on the turn we have a consensus (2 of 2 /images/graemlins/smile.gif) to call down

I hadn't thought about the pot size before asking the question /images/graemlins/frown.gif. I will be getting 13:1 or so, so on the basis that is may be a set against which I have 2 outs or 2 pair against which I have 8, this must be an easy call (I may even be ahead of one of Fyodor's idiots /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

SB had Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif so was indeeed protecting his hand on flop and betting top pair on the turn

UTG had A /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif so was calling with his open-ender and overcard.

I think not getting a raise in on one of the first two streets was awful. The way I (mis)played it I MUST bet the river - ugh! I have shown no strength and they STILL check... what am I thinking?

Assuming we raise the turn with both calling, and they check the river, do you still value bet?

Thanks all. This has been very useful.

Trevor

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming we raise the turn with both calling, and they check the river, do you still value bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

For sure.

-Mike

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming we raise the turn with both calling, and they check the river, do you still value bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

For sure.

-Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto