From last night's 2+2 table

[scotty34]

This was a hand from last night's (semi)serious 2+2 game. Some interesting new concepts come into play when you know your opponents are thinking players, and they know you are a thinking player.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (8.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

What do you think of the way I played this hand? I'll post my thoughts later.

[kapw7]

I would fold the flop.
So what were you thinking? Or what do you think your opponent was thinking that you were thinking?
It seems to me a bad play. You have nothing and it's obvious you cannot bluff him out of his hand

[milesdyson]

I think his most likely hand is Ax/images/graemlins/heart.gif or QJ. I think your flop call is bad because you are drawing to nothing, the pot is not large, and your only chance of winning the pot is by bluffing.

Since you did call the flop check raise, I think calling the turn is better than raising. He is either betting a made hand or a strong draw on the turn - he is not folding. Your raise is simply allowing you to pick up the pot on the river when his flush does not come through. However, I'd say you have almost the same chance of picking up the pot by calling the turn and betting the river if checked to. It costs one less BB, it does not allow him to 3-bet the turn when you have outs, and perhaps it keeps him betting when you make your flush on the river.

I know I've kind of said a bunch of crap but it's every thing that popped into my head as I read and thought about the hand. So to summarize, fold the flop, call the turn, fold the river unimproved or bet if he checks.

[irishpint]

no me gusta. curious to hear your thoughts.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

Makes me sorry I missed the last semi serious 2+2 table.

On first glance I didn't much care for the play, but I think I like it. If your opponent does have Axh, he doesn't seem to think you have a damn thing on the turn, so unless you take control of this hand on the turn you won't be able to bluff him off on the river. (He'll assume his Ace High is good, and bet, and will you really be able to put him on ace high then and raise him?)

But of course this doesn't mean anything if he has a hand. Axs seems like an OK holding here versus a likely steal, as would most pockets. I don't think he has a Ten, since AT seems like a good hand to reraise here against an aggressive 2+2er. KT is very unlikely, and QT and JT aren't calling here.

But for osme reason I don't think he has a pocket pair here, so I like your play. I don't think it is the BEST line here, but knowing who it was, and previous action might make me play it this way.

Now, my thoughts may be way off, as I just had some comforting advice to an attractive friend who has joined me in the dumped boat not really help her at all, so my poker advice may suck right now too.

[scotty34]

OK, well here were my thoughts during the hand. I probably needed to include this in my OP, but it may be kind of obvious that this would happen in a semi-serious 2+2 game. Most hands had 2-4 players to the flop, with nearly every pot being raised preflop. There were a TON of steal attempts, and the blinds would try and defend most times.

Preflop - I make a questionable steal attempt with 67s from the CO. I probably would not normally do this, but it was making the game interesting. The BB calling at this point pretty much narrowed down his holding to any two cards over 8, any suited A/K/Q, any A, K7+, Q8+ or maybe low suited connectors. I think any pocket pair would have 3-bet me in this scenario.

Flop - BB checks to me, so I make the standard bet to try and pick up the pot right there. BB knows this, knows my range of stealing hands, and knows that there is a pretty darn good chance I whiffed on that flop. So he checkraises me. To me, this definetly means he does not have a king (it could mean a T, but it could also mean a heart draw, or really just any 2 trying to represent a hand). I flat call, knowing that this probably looks scary, with the intent of making a stab at the pot on the turn. This is a questionable idea, but I think it has a reasonable chance of success given the range of hands I put villain on here. I think I may even be willing to go to showdown if I hit a 6 or 7.

Turn - That turn card was great for me, vastly improving my chances of winning on the river if villain decides to come for a showdown. It now gives me the ability to semi-bluff, as opposed to making a pure bluff. With my flat call on the flop check-raise, and then raising him here on the turn, I think villain may put me on a likely K here. I was really hoping that he would fold, and I knew I would have to call a 3-bet and fold the river UI. Since villain called here, I now have him on a heart draw or a T.

River - No heart, and another overcard to scare him if villain has a T. Villain checks to me, so I bet being as that is the only way I am going to win. This bet I think is standard, as he definetly will fold one time in 8.


The flop call is definetly the most questionable part of the hand, but I think it was OK given the range of hands I put villain on here. The turn seemed to perfectly comply with the semi-bluffing sections of TOP. I've heard stories about Doyle Brunson playing hands without even looking at his cards - of course I'm not Doyle Brunson, but someday... If you can make a good read on your opponents and understand how they think, you don't always need the best hand to win.

Well those were my thoughts on the hand, what do you guys think? Too fancy/not profitable, or nice hand? If the villain recognizes this hand, I'm curious to know what you had here.

[kapw7]

You managed to bluff prefop, flop, turn and river! And it looks like you won. So definitely nice hand!
However I think it's too fancy overall and thus not profitable. It would be better to fold the flop. But certainly a nice hand that I enjoyed.

[scott2130]

I have used this same logic on many occasions and I have come to the conclusion it is WRONG and EXPENSIVE as you move up in stakes.

I like the initial steal attempt and first bet on the flop, but you should give up there if he doesn't fold. If he connected at all with the flop, and his check raise suggests that, then he will go to showdown assuming you don't have a K either. The flush draw on the river does give you hope but ussually false hope. You are assuming he doesn't have a higher flush draw.

I am not the best at the math but I will try to explain myself the best I can. You think you have 15 outs, 9 flush cards and 6 to pair up. More then likely though, you only have 9 outs to the flush or you are already drawing dead to a fullhouse or higher flush. So if a flush draw on the flop comes in 35% of the time, then by the turn it has to be down to 20%. You are also hoping for runner runner so that has to drop it down to 10% or lower. When you take this into account along with the fact that you are heads up and only doubling your money it is -EV in my book to go as far as you did.

[deception5]

Darn I missed it - where/when was the 2+2 table? Will you be having another one soon?

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
You managed to bluff prefop, flop, turn and river!

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, I never really looked at it that way - though not entirely accurate, it's still pretty funny. You are probably right that it is too fancy and not profitable, and I am really just trying to think too much instead of being straightforward. Maybe I should change the stakes to 15/30 and post it in the mid-high stakes forum and see what they say. That might yield some interesting discussion, as thinking about every possible angle of every hand is what they do.

[scotty34]

This was actually on Monday night, and I posted the hand last night. Just suggest one any night but Friday, and people will usually be up for it.

[DeathDonkey]

When he calls your turn raise you are getting looked up I would feel. Therefore I wouldn't bet the river. I also wouldn't have raised the turn because you picked up a draw and when he 3 bets you you are going to hate it. I agree he can't have much the way he played it but if he called your turn raise and then folds the river he played it pretty bad.

-DeathDonkey

[Kumubou]

[ QUOTE ]
I have used this same logic on many occasions and I have come to the conclusion it is WRONG and EXPENSIVE as you move up in stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Normally I would agree, but given the texture of the table it isn't so bad. Overall, the table was very tight (table VPIP of ~18%, and that drops to the low teens if you take a LAG or two out) and somewhat weak. He had better than even odds of pushing someone off of a marginal made hand, and it was unlikely his opponent had any strength either.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Heroine is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Heroine 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Heroine calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Heroine bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Heroine calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Heroine checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Heroine folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

(Yeah, I folded an overpair. How incredably weak-tight. He would have spiked an ace on the river anyway.)

-K

[ClaytonN]

Checkraise the turn, you weak-tighty weak tight.

I was in the 1 seat during this hand and I yelled "FFS you both have AQ/AK" because the decisions took so damn long.

He had AQ, you wussed out with TT.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
When he calls your turn raise you are getting looked up I would feel. Therefore I wouldn't bet the river. I also wouldn't have raised the turn because you picked up a draw and when he 3 bets you you are going to hate it. I agree he can't have much the way he played it but if he called your turn raise and then folds the river he played it pretty bad.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

The checkraise on the flop I think tells me most of the time he does NOT have a K - what makes you think he is going to 3-bet the turn? I planned on raising the turn on most cards once I was checkraised on the flop. I should have folded the flop when he checkraised if I planned on just calling the turn. This play wasn't really about odds, or about going to showdown at all. I really don't think he had any sort of a made hand at this point, and I thought I could make him fold.

If he had a heart draw for example, why do you think he played it badly by folding the river when he missed?

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
what makes you think he is going to 3-bet the turn? I planned on raising the turn on most cards once I was checkraised on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing makes me think he will, but sometimes he will. And since you picked up the draw and are forced to call a 3 bet, you shouldn't have raised.

[ QUOTE ]
I should have folded the flop when he checkraised if I planned on just calling the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that depends on what the turn is. You picked up a good draw and certainly can't fold the turn, you need to change your plan to adapt to the turn card.

[ QUOTE ]
If he had a heart draw for example, why do you think he played it badly by folding the river when he missed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he did have a heart draw and I'm sure he folded a better no pair hand than you by all that you are saying. He didn't play the river badly by folding his missed draw, but he played the turn badly. He never should have bet the turn if he would have to: (a) call your turn raise, and (b) fold to a river bet without improvement. His hand is simply too fragile to stand a turn raise and one will frequently be forthcoming after the way the flop went down.

-DeathDonkey

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think of the way I played this hand? I'll post my thoughts later.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given the action I think your river bet might me futile unless you put your opponent squarely on a heart draw. Everything else is so player/game dependent that there is nothing to say about it one way or the other.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think of the way I played this hand? I'll post my thoughts later.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given the action I think your river bet might me futile unless you put your opponent squarely on a heart draw. Everything else is so player/game dependent that there is nothing to say about it one way or the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

The river bet is the only sensible thing after the way this hand has been played. You don't have to put him squarely on a heart draw. You need him to fold a busted draw (that beats 67) 1 out of 9 times.