Interesting 6th street play

[mscags]

What do you guys think about the raise on sixth street? My thinking was that if I could get the open pair behind me to fold then I might be able to take half if I missed my draws and hit a pair. I hit a pair, not the one I wanted but I made myself call bc the pot was so big. Thoughts on all streets appreciated.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/club.gif___completes
Seat 4: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif___brings-in___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls___calls

4th Street - (4.70 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___calls
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls

5th Street - (4.35 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets

6th Street - (7.35 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets___raises
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif___raises___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___folds

River - (13.35 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif xx___bets
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks___calls

Total pot: (15.35 BB)

[templar999]

ms,

on 6th, i think the raise was fine to get the open pair to fold. you've got a good two way hand. but when the initial bettor reraises, he certainly has a made low hand, plus decent high possibilities. to play that strongly on 6th against your board and your aggression indicates a pretty big hand. i would not be surprised if he had a wheel, or a 65 low with a pair of aces.

on seventh, with the pot so big, i suppose a call is mandatory. but thinking a little more about it, if you caught a king and wouldnt call with AK high, then it's probably not right to call with a pair of deuces either. but again, calling cant be that big a mistake.

respectfully,
temp

[bigredlemon]

I love your 6th street play. I don't have the guts to pull something like that, but I definetly admire a person who does. I think this is one the situations where betting the worest hand will pay off. It doesn't look like it worked out for you here though, but i think it might in the long run.

btw, I had the fortune of sharing a table with you recently. You pretty much folded every single hand and left 15 minutes later.

[mscags]

Whats your name?

[bigredlemon]

I randomly entered a series of letters and numbers when a few months ago when I was playing with the account options. It starts with a56, and its getting changed as soon as the 6 month limit is up. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[mscags]

Say hi next time since I wont have any idea that it is you /images/graemlins/smile.gif What limit were we playing?

[bigredlemon]

I'll be sure to do that next time I see you playing. It was at the 3/6... i think all the bad players decided to congregate at that one stud table because every other limit was a complete rocketfest at that time.

[mscags]

Yeah its pretty strange, sometimes I'll look for some good tables and its a rockfest at every limit and at other times even the 10-20 tables look good /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bartholow]

I'm just finally starting to try out high low, so I may not know what I'm talking about. But: Shouldn't any made low be willing to pretty much automatically 3-bet on 6th street? Hero can't have a low, and from his board may actually not have a low draw at all. Not to say that this guy doesn't probably also have some sort of wheel draw going, but I think you definitely call 7th for that reason.

[Bartholow]

Copied and pasted from my previous post: I'm just finally starting to try out high low, so I may not know what I'm talking about.

As admittedly hindsight analysis: You know that seat 5 will be 3-betting you on 6th with any made low, which is good because seat 8 knows this too but bad because you could certainly get scooped, even if you catch something. So this makes you think you might want to at least look like you could have a made low, except that then the high hand is a lot less convinced he should leave. So nevermind that. What you want is a hand that has a little surer shot of winning for high if you get headsup. If you already had a pair, I think I'd like your play. As it is I think it's a bit too reckless.

How'd I do?

[vintage_sara]

I don't like the 6th street raise at all. You have a hand that goes both ways but its not there on either side and you have only one card to come. And your opponent (the one betting) should have the low here. By keeping the 8s in you set yourself up for a possible check raise on the river...especially nice if you hit the 3 of clubs (we all dream), which give you the best low you can possibly draw to. And more often than not the best high. Hopefully what happens is the 8s check, you check the low bets, the two pair make a crying call and you raise. Any other low non-club card other than the three makes you a hideous low which is most likely beat. 67, 68 (less likey since your opponent is holding two 8s)

[Bartholow]

Hero acts after the low hand, not after the eights.

[bigredlemon]

I think you are giving too much credit. Hero came in with a baby club door card. Villain would have to consider the fact that hero has made a flush and were now freerolling on him for the low. The villain can only 3bet if.
1. doesn't believe hero has flush (you were the bring in after all, and should have raised the completion with 3 suited lows)
2. has made a wheel

from villain's board, it definetly does not look like villain paired up, so any pair should get Hero a big pot presuming villain doesn't pair as well. This presumes he didn't make the wheel.

[mscags]

Yeah If I would check and the low would bet than I would be acting right after and would blow the eights out of the water unless he possibly tripped up. My thinking with the raise on sixth was that if I got the open pair to fold than it was quite possible for me to take the high half with just about any pair. (I didn't believe that he had a wheel)

[Bartholow]

Yeah, maybe I was giving too much credit. Being scared of hero having exactly two very small clubs in the hole is not something I considered.

I agree that hero will usually win with any pair here, but he doesn't even have a pair yet, and that worries me. And the low guy has a decent shot of having at least a gutshot straight draw, so sometimes when you do make your pair you lose to that, plus sometimes you lose to the low guy pairing larger. Overall it is quite a parlay that a) the high hand will fold (what if he has trips, do you try to represent the flush again on river?), b) you will make a pair or flush, c) the pair will be good.

[vintage_sara]

really? the action should be 8s first, the hero, the "low" so the 8s check which they do and hero checks, the the low bests. the 8s call on 6th, hero can call here rather than raise. He can do the same on the river hoping the 8s make a crying call with two pair and he can raise with the hand.

[mscags]

The action starts with the bold word and then goes downward (or in this case back up to the top and then down)

[bigredlemon]

I believe you'd even take it down with AJ highcard if he didn't pair the river

[vintage_sara]

so I am correct. the 8s are first to act from fifth street on, meaning you can just choose to call rather than raise on 6th after the "low" bets and reraises, knocking out the 8s.

In my opinion, keeping the 8s in is important for you to make money, especially since you don't have a high or low at this point. I would call six not raise. If the 8s check again on the river, you can check (with just the high-hand flush and manuveur a check raise) or bet (if you have high and low for the possible scoop with the beautiful three of clubs). If the low has a low, what are your chances really of pairing up? All your low cards should be relatively dead (in the "lows" hand). Your Ace is out as we can see and seat 8 has your jack and 9. The only thing I would be afraid of is seat 8 catching a straight or a flush and maybe a fullhouse but his board is pretty dead too, but then you don't have to call with one pair on the river. But if you improve to your best high catching a club, you will most likely beat any high hand he can bring in (his potential flush can't beat yours) And if he catches a straight well we know what wins. As it turns out you end up with a pair of deuces that I think is a marginal call at best. I am not as experienced in hi-lo as I am at stud hi but that is how I see this.

[vintage_sara]

One more note, I might make the raise...if I knew that seat 8 was just one of those idiots who would still draw to the straight after I raised. I mean your raise announces ace J high flush. You can't have a low. Any player drawing for anything lower should fold.

[Bartholow]

I'm not sure where the confusion is. Clearly the 8s act first, but the low hand is next, and hero last.

[Bartholow]

I agree with your analysis, it seems better to try to let the open 8s pay you off with a second best hand after you hit than try to MAYBE knock him out to MAYBE win high. If anything, if hero does just catch a high pair, hero can THEN try to knock out the high player, though that could be tough.

[Bartholow]

Ok, we can see our low player has A53T, let's give him something like 27 down, which gives him only one gutshot. So if hero doesn't pair, he loses the high half if the low player catches an A, 5, 3, T, 2, or 7 for pairs, plus a 4 for the straight plus a K, Q, or even J for better high card hands. Obviously some of the brick cards for hero beat some of those high card hands, but you won't feel real confident calling a bet. Note that if low has 46 or 47 he has more straight outs even, and he could also have something like a 4 flush in hearts.

Obviously the above analysis is in some sense pessimistic, but counting on winning with AJ high is a pretty bad plan IMHO.