let's look at a notable hand from 2/5 NL at the MGM grand

[whiskeytown]

2/5 NL at the MGM Grand - Sunday during my road trip to Vegas - I usually play 1/2 but it was full and I only had two hrs. till a tourney, so I sat in this one -

for the purposes of this story, I don't remember suits, but I know there was no flush draw that hit.

I have about $250 in front of me in MP - I get AA

EP player raises it to $20 - I reraise to $50 - LP player COLD CALLS 50 bucks and the EP player calls -

3 players - flop J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 rag

EP checks - I fire out a $25 probe and LP reraises it to $100 - EP calls and I call -

I'm fairly new at the table - EP is an older gentleman, and LP is a young NYC'er who has a buddy at the table - my thought process is that someone hit something - probably EP, and LP has a big overpair like mine or he has AK and is trying to be pushy.

I don't see two pair or trips unless it's from EP, because with me betting/raising all the time, a smart player in LP would wait till the turn and just let me keep pumping the pot full of money. But then, a smart player may not cold call a big hand with a raise/reraise either - and this kid ain't smart. On the other hand, a Genius would overbet his monster hand to make me think he was bluffing - but that's an easy option to rule out with this guy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Turn - 8 rag -

EP and I check - we let LP pump another 75 in there - we both call - I can't put anyone on a st8 draw - just not likely.

River 7 -

I only have about $50 in front of me - (the math is fuzzy, but so was my brain) - check/check and LP goes all in - I cannot fold this pot with that amount of cash in it, but I don't think I can win - so I make a lovely crying call.

questions? - comments?

EDIT: - pulled out the results - just so we're not biased -

RB

[TheWorstPlayer]

I would re-raise to $80 preflop. Even the way you played it, I would push the flop.

[Little Fishy]

I don't think betting 1/6 of the pot is a good idea in general, that aside (because it was a probe) I say push all in after it gets raised on the flop. or at least on the turn.

[whiskeytown]

I definately would be lying if I said I was on my A game (2 hrs. sleep after a night of hard drinking and 1/2NL) or that I was reading everyone (only had been at the table about 10 min.) or that I understood WTF the 50 buck cold call was about...

in retrospect, a push on the flop was the clear play, esp. with two diamonds on the flop - but in my head I was thinking "I want more info" - I was looking for cold calls of the mini bet as being monsters, and I didn't really get either - LOL

RB

[RiverTheNuts]

Never mind, the pot is huge, with how big it is preflop, you prolly gotta go all the way

[soah]

You have AA on a relatively okay board against two opponents, you have $150 left, and there is $150 in the pot. This is not a tough decision.

[PokerFink]

You played it in such an unorthodox fashion, but I like it.

Once LP raises it on the flop you are obviously committed, since most your stack is in there and the pot is huge. I think just check/calling it down has a lot of merit, since it lets EP stay in there and pay you off even more.

EP could have a draw, but it's not like a re-raise on the flop is going to get EP to fold at that point; the pot is way to big. And you're definitely not folding out anything that beats you. So you might as well play it passively, check/call the rest of your stack and hope it holds up in a 3-way showdown.

Any time I have a chance to triple up against a couple of idiots with 50BB and AA I'm going to take it and hope the poker gods don't smell an AA they need to crack.

[whiskeytown]

the EP raiser has KK -

the LP hotshot who's calls/raises had me so confused has KJ sooted and I drag a $700 pot and pay for all my Vegas expenses in one hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RB

[soah]

It's too late to edit my post, but it seems I miscalculated your stack size. But the point remains... make a real bet on the flop and let the rest go in when someone raises, or put it in on the turn.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
Any time I have a chance to triple up against a couple of idiots...

[/ QUOTE ]

I love live baby NL games.

[whiskeytown]

so much more fun then the online ones aren't they /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RB

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]

so much more fun then the online ones aren't they

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely.. makes me wonder why I bother playing online. Online you very likely would have lost this hand. I've yet to see a guy call a re-raise with KJ, but live I've seen them call it all.

Lawrence

[MarkL444]

i dont like the weak flop bet into such a draw heavy board. tough spot. id want to bet around 125 there myself, not sure if thats right or not.

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
EP checks - I fire out a $25 probe and LP reraises it to $100 - EP calls and ....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you should usually fold, sounds like you were up against a couple of idiots though.

[RiverTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EP checks - I fire out a $25 probe and LP reraises it to $100 - EP calls and ....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you should usually fold, sounds like you were up against a couple of idiots though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I thought at first, but he fires 1/6th of the pot and gets raised not even pot size, and has almost no chips left, I think its set in stone after the preflop action that hero has to get it all in here

[whiskeytown]

that's the thing...

who calls a $50 buck bet cold preflop after a raise/reraise? Probably someone with no brain or some genius who can outplay me.

someone with no brain bluffs/steals on the flop -

some genius overbets to make me think he's weak.

both options look the same, but he was a young wiseass from NYC and so was his buddy, so I went with the not so smart move.

In retrospect, I shoulda wrote it down - when I do the playback in my head, I'm feeling like the math says I was all in on the turn, but I know I did it on the river - maybe I had $300 - It was early when I won that pot, and I won another $100 before cashing -

but by the river, I was almost sure I was beaten and said so, but I said there was too much money in the pot for me to lay it down for my few chips I had left, and I called.

It was the EP raiser that I really worried about - someone who's smart would just keep coldcalling his monster and let us dump chips in the pot, which is exactly what he did after his preflop raise.

I am definately tighter in my NL games, but usually in live games, it induces bluffs, so I don't complain - I've had terrific results at NL in Vegas where the fish play - I really need to try Turtle Lake this weekend.

RB

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EP checks - I fire out a $25 probe and LP reraises it to $100 - EP calls and ....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you should usually fold, sounds like you were up against a couple of idiots though.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thats what I thought at first, but he fires 1/6th of the pot and gets raised not even pot size, and has almost no chips left, I think its set in stone after the preflop action that hero has to get it all in here

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is the way your going to play it, why not push the turn?

theres already enough money in the pot to draw idiots in with a draw and i hate being put to a decision on the river if the flush comes out

[DoubleDown]

this might be minor but, I'd raise a little bit more preflop as this will allow you to get your stack in on the flop a little easier by increasing the size of the pot to make nearly any bet on the flop a pot-committing one

as it is, i think your flop bet is good if you're certain that it will be raised as this will allow you to get your entire stack in on the flop (which is what you absolutely want here!) ... once you are raised on the flop you need to push it all-in.

[whiskeytown]

I appreciate all the responses, BTW - my NL game is successful so far this year (more so then my Limit game) but it's my weakest theory wise with no good 2+2 books on the subject -

gratsi....next time, go for the flop push....good idea.

RB

[amoeba]

you seemed fairly short stacked here.

I reraise enough preflop so that my remaining stack is about pot sized on the flop if called.

Then I push the flop.

[whiskeytown]

I tend to buy in short stacked as opposed to max - play mega tight and just double/triple up a couple times. I'll go all in on a hand I like but don't like doing it with $500 at risk - I'd rather do it with $250 and then I'll play the $500 more aggressively, knowing if I lose some of it I'm not really operating at a loss.

and well, from playing tourneys, I have learned I have a gift for playing the short stack

I actually was about average for the table - I was gonna do 200 but made it $240 cause I had two 20's in my wallet and it would make me more on par with the other stacks.

at Wynn I took $120 up to $560 - (and there's no max buyin there - I was playing a guy who bought in for a grand.)

RB

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EP checks - I fire out a $25 probe and LP reraises it to $100 - EP calls and ....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you should usually fold, sounds like you were up against a couple of idiots though.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thats what I thought at first, but he fires 1/6th of the pot and gets raised not even pot size, and has almost no chips left, I think its set in stone after the preflop action that hero has to get it all in here

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is the way your going to play it, why not push the turn?

theres already enough money in the pot to draw idiots in with a draw and i hate being put to a decision on the river if the flush comes out

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at his stack size compared to the size of the pot. There is no decision required.

[NickPoker]

If your confident in your poker skills, you should not buy in short stacked, you cost yourself money when you hit a big hand. As far as this hand goes, and the fact that you are short stacked, I would raise more preflop (to $70/80), and push the flop. Since you are short stacked there is a better chance of a lesser hand calling you, so if your going to play short stacked take the advantages that come with it, one of which is easier decisions. Get all the chips in the middle as soon as you can, don't give people the odds to draw.

[RiverTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
If your confident in your poker skills, you should not buy in short stacked, you cost yourself money when you hit a big hand. As far as this hand goes, and the fact that you are short stacked, I would raise more preflop (to $70/80), and push the flop. Since you are short stacked there is a better chance of a lesser hand calling you, so if your going to play short stacked take the advantages that come with it, one of which is easier decisions. Get all the chips in the middle as soon as you can, don't give people the odds to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree... the biggest advantage to buying in short at NL games is that all ins are more apt to get called, so raise more PF and push flop, KK or KJ, possibly both, would call