Big time fundamental errors (your action?)

[MediaPA]

I was chasing my money after losing $1k on TPTK 9 high board to JJ. I had every reason to believe that I was dead, but I got locked onto the hand.

Anyway, here are 2 hands from later in the session. I'd be interested in what you'd do in my spot. I have no reads. My apologies if these are fundamental situations, but I tend to play outside my BR (the stakes say they belong here).

BB ($2075)
UTG ($4400)
Button ($2333)
Hero ($2605)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $65</font>, Hero calls $55, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($155) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $155</font>. Button raises to $620.

Your action?


BB ($2473)
UTG ($511)
MP ($4312)
Button ($4213)
Hero ($3314)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero completes, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $125</font>, BB calls $100, UTG calls $125, Button calls $100.

Flop: ($500) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

Your action?

I'll post what I did, and my logic behind it later. Again sorry if these are 'autopilot' plays for the majority of people.

[Slappz]

1st hand looks like an easy fold, i dont think theres any way ur the favorite there.

2nd hand id check and see what happens, but im pretty weak tight in those positions. I feel like if you get called/raised on that flop mutliway then you have no clue where you are and there are plenty of scare cards that could ruin your hand on the turn too.

[MediaPA]

Hand 1: I agree that I'm sucking wind based on the re-raise. I've started to think about it after the session. What hands would he re-raise? Straight, Trips, Two Pair, Low flush, Ace spades, Bluff. Ok, that's a pretty wide range, but the only two that can comfortably call a re-raise IMO (probably incorrectly) are the Ace and flush. I'm dead if it's Ax suited. Low suited connectors are possible since it's short-handed. Ok, so I'm justifying the merits of a re-raise since the Ace spades/made flush would be the only things that can stand heat. Am I missing something here?

Hand 2: Being out of position sucks. I don't want to give a free card, betting small or even the pot leaves me with little information if called. Checking gives me less information. I don't see where I can go right in this hand if I want to win it. I really didn't expect 3 people to come along for the ride. Would a lead of say 350 be ok? If called, push on the turn if a non-scare card hits, which I think would be the 2,3,4 which didn't complete the flush? I just don't see where to go since I hit a flop that has a lot of future danger, but seems relatively safe at the moment.

[MediaPA]

Now that I tried to justify my choices, here's what I did:

Hand 1: I re-raised him to a little over 2k (so about 1400 more to him.

Hand 2: I overbet the pot - 850, figuring that I'd make a draw pay. Only problem is, I'm probably only getting called if I'm behind with this bet (sets, two pair)

Now maybe some 'you're terrible' 'please play at my table' comments will ensue.

[captZEEbo1]

Hand 2, I might check, and if button bets, just go allin and end it (and hope I'm ahead). Otherwise, try to see the action. Giving a free card might be a disaster though. SOMEONE will bet that flop though I assume.

Hand 1, tough hand. A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQx would do this I assume, also A/images/graemlins/spade.gifJx or Tx might do it too probably. I don't mind reraising AKs pf to a button raise. I think you really need a read to play this hand.

[aceferret]

Hand 1 is an easy fold. Although I think I would have check raised him and then folded to a reraise.

Hand 2 I'd bet about 400 to 450. I think this bet accomplishes the same as the over bet. I think this defines your hand and if it is called or raised, I would think that you are beat. I'd be afraid of QQ or a set.

[LuvDemNutz]

Hand 1 - I fold

Hand 2 - I think the only advantage to the overbet is that you MIGHT get QQ to fold. But if you are called you are toast unless the turn is a J. I'd bet $400 or so.

[piki]

This is easy for me to say, but the common thread I dont like about both of your lines is you are advertising your hand. You have to fold to huge raises. I think you need to mix it up a little and see what happens.

For example, giving a free card is not ideal for Hand 1, but neither is advertising a pair with a pot sized bet. You could check the flop and see what happens.

For hand 2, you could have limped in preflop and see what happens on a flop bet. You should introduce some CRing here so your opponents know you will make them pay for trying to steal.

Good luck

[cero_z]

Hi MPA,

Hand 1 is a fold, given that he may see you as willing to chase, or just bad/inexperienced (given the previous hand you mentioned). I would've played the AK very differently: I would re-raise to about 200 a lot of the time, and keep the lead in most cases. But, if I'd just called as you did pre-flop, I would never bet out on this flop. Leading into him after just calling should be done on a ragged A-high board, like A 9 6. That way, you can represent "any Ace", and he may pop you (he'll certainly at least call down) with AQ/AJ.

With this scary flop, I'd look to check-call the flop and turn, and re-assess (sometimes check-call, sometimes lead, sometimes check-fold) the river if 2 blanks fell. If a 4th spade hit, I'd bet right out about 2/3 pot, representing the flush. If he called, I'd check the river and feel OK, expecting him to check behind me if he has a smaller one-pair hand, not bluff, and bet if he has me beat. All of this is basically saying, "try to play a small pot with this flop".

Hand 2 is really tough. In general, I check to see what develops, but a lot of the time you can't continue. If your image is really strong at the moment, you can fire 400-500 and hope to not get played with. Usually, you're gonna have to muck this flop. Too many draws with almost no redraw for you in this hand, if you're even good right now. Seems weak, but you're going to have a hard time making this one stand up.

[MediaPA]

JAA,

The second hand screams I have a overpair w/ the overbet I put in. I thought my raise would take it down pre-flop, but I should have raised more instead of just $100 more for limpers to go. If the BB doesn't call, maybe it goes through or is heads up. Since it was 4-way, I felt extremely lost in how to play it after my raise.

I'm too used to this getting checked through if I don't lead after the flop (since I raised pre-flop). C/R would have been my play if I limped. There are few free cards that I can hold onto my hand if they hit. I decided that I wanted the pot, and risked my stack to do it, when I'm only getting called by better hands rather than give a possible free card. Poor decision.

Hand 1 was just pure silliness. I wasn't really thinking clearly. I have no idea where I should have gone, and pretty much hate the whole thing now that I'm looking back at it. In leading, I wanted to show that I had hit something, I didn't think it would advertise the pair specifically. Was the re-raise for information, which looking back makes sense? It lets him know where he is.

I just don't see where I can be comfortable in this hand if it goes to the flop and river. At best, I'm against a weaker paired ace (in retrospect) with little chance to improve. Is that the likely situation?

These hands just show me how much being out of position sucks in No-Limit, and that I have a ton to learn. I put myself in spots where I have to make tough decisions than necessary for myself. Like I said, I got fortunate on these hands.

[stankybank]

Hand 1: Fold. You don't have any clean outs that will insure you're ahead and you're behind in this hand the majority of the time a raise like this is thrown in. What hands are you ahead of? Any spade kills your hand. A straight card kills your hand. Fold now. I might come over the top PF but that all depends.

Hand 2: I pot the flop and see what happens. Slow down w/ multiple callers. If it gets HU, then I'll just try to extract a decent size bet w/o getting the pot size too big. Use pot control here.

[piki]

THanks for the reply, we all have a lot to learn. Being OOP does suck, especially with a scary board. Maybe its a hand you check/fold with, depends on your opponents. It almost sounds like you are going through one of those "I cant do anything right" phases. If so, take your time, no need to rush things. While it may hurt your ego, an option would be to drop a little in limits. This should help you evaluate your game more cheaply than the limits you are at now. If poker isnt fun for you, dont bother playing it. I think we all go through these stages, and frankly, not all of us decide we want to keep playing. Dont continue to rack yourself about all this, but take your time and let the game come to you.

Good luck,
JAA