An AK thread - Level 1 - UTG

[Scuba Chuck]

I want to continue a discussion from within another post. In this post, I'm going to post some examples of UTG AK hands on level 1. I'm interested in thoughts on the play. Specifically, I'm interested in what Adanthar says in the previous dfscott post.

[ QUOTE ]
I've actually made my standard raise size 60 in level 1 because of this problem. No big deal if I get more callers, the point is to outplay them postflop anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will post a few AK hands to review. Please assume all hands are $33s. Assume no table reads. If any one of these hands you'd play differently with a higher chip count on the $55s+, please feel free to add additional comments.

Scuba

[Scuba Chuck]

Hand 1

AKo – UTG (no club). Hero raises to t60.

Callers
MP, Button, BB.

Flop (pot 250) A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
BB checks to you…

[Scuba Chuck]

Hand 2

AKo – UTG. Hero raises to t60.

Callers
MP, Button, BB.

Flop (pot 250) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB checks to you…

[Scuba Chuck]

AKo – UTG (Ace of hearts). Hero raises to t60.

Callers
MP, Button, BB.

Flop (pot 250) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB checks to you…

[Scuba Chuck]

Hand 4

AKo – UTG. Hero raises to t60.

Callers
MP, Button, BB.

Flop (pot 250) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif
BB checks to you…

Scenario 1) You don’t have a club
Scenario 2) You have the K/images/graemlins/club.gif

[1C5]

I Play 22s, so assume my play would be mostly the same in 33s.

Hand 1

With 2 Clubs, and 3 callers, I make a bet of anywhere from 200-250 here.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2

AKo – UTG. Hero raises to t60.

Callers
MP, Button, BB.

Flop (pot 250) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB checks to you…

[/ QUOTE ]

Scary board but I have to assme no one called a 4X BB raise with JT so I am most likely still ahead here. I make a bet of 250 here.

[Sabrazack]

Hand 1) Im betting 200 into this pot. There are two clubs out there and 3 other people to the flop, no free cards here. If i am called and a club hits the board i will proceed with extreme caution, since i am now not only beat by the quite possible AJ (or a set) but also by a flush.

Hand 2) I would bet 200 here too. There are just too many people here to do anything more fancy imo.

Hand 3) Bet again, same story.

Hand 4)
Scenario 1) Im going to bet 150 here, if i am re-raised it will depend alot on the opponent who reraises and the amount he reraises me if i call or not.

Scenario 2) Same as above, only im probably calling a reraise no matter what opponent. (depending on the size)

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
AKo – UTG (Ace of hearts). Hero raises to t60.

Callers
MP, Button, BB.

Flop (pot 250) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB checks to you…

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I will bet 250 here.

[GtrHtr]

Hand 1: I will put in a pot sized bet due to the flush draw. Danger hands are sets and AJ but most of the time I'll take the pot on the flop.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4

AKo – UTG. Hero raises to t60.

Callers
MP, Button, BB.

Flop (pot 250) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif
BB checks to you…

Scenario 1) You don’t have a club
Scenario 2) You have the K/images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Tough one, I make a pot size bet also here as I may be beat but there is more of a chance that someone is going for a flush and I want to make him pay to see another card. Can see myself going broke with this hand often though.

2) Same as above, how can you ever fold a chance for a royal??? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[GtrHtr]

I'll bet 60 again here to see what kind of action will come back my way or I'll gain some info back. Probably not my strongest play and maybe a leak for me.

[GtrHtr]

2/3 or pot sized bet, same as hand 1.

[GtrHtr]

I'll either check this or buy a free card on this flop in version 2. I am not going strong at this pot with that flop and prefer to get as many more cards out as I can for the least amount of chips. More that any of the previous hands, it sucks not to have position on this on.

version 1. check/fold mode this early.

[11t]

bet 200

[11t]

Check and see how it goes down, I might let this go simply due to people overplaying KQ or 99. I'd probably call any late position raise and if it is heads up I'd just push any rag turn and hop efor the best.

[11t]

Bet 150 and be prepared to fold to a reraise

[11t]

Id bet the pot with the K of clubs and call a push, I would probably check it without and check-raise all in versus a raise (hope nobody hit some trailer park flush) or bet the pot on any non club turn and probably fold to a push.

I'm way more used to playing on Stars turbos with the 1500 chips though.

[Newt_Buggs]

In the first 3 hands I bet around the pot as well

hand 4 starts to get tricky but I think that its important to assume in both scenarios that you have the best hand to begin with. The chance that somoene called your raise and is holding A/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif or 8/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gif is quite small. Both scenarios i play similarly and bet around 150 and probably call a raise. Yes, they could have a hand like one of the above, but they could also have 99, QJ, or even QK making more scared of a smooth call than a raise. Situation two I see no reason to slow play because you want to take QJ and 99's money before they get scared off by a turn card. You also want to make that A/images/graemlins/club.gif pay if its out there.

edit: you people really need to start combining your responses into one post

[schwza]

hand 1: easy bet. 4 way, don't want to give cards to gutshots / flush draws. let's start the process of stacking off AQ/AT. i bet 180.

hand 2: still bet. don't want to give free cards to pair+gutshot. bet 180 and plan on calling a push (unless more than one person plays).

hand 3: bet. same reasons.

hand 4: either case: bet, plan on calling the A /images/graemlins/club.gif's push.

i dunno, maybe there's something more to these hands, but they all look like pretty clear bets to me.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno, maybe there's something more to these hands, but they all look like pretty clear bets to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm missing something. I'm interested in knowing what Adanthar is referring to when he eludes to outplaying them postflop. That being said, I'm also interested in finding out where if any, people will get away from any of these hands. Some of them have straight and flush draw potential. Some of them have multiple broadway cards (so potential for 2 pair) showing. Does anyone get away from TPTK, or is everyone going to the felt here?

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: you people really need to start combining your responses into one post

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to but I thought it was easier to follow by having each one seperate so people won't have to keep looking up to remember which hand I was talking about.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll either check this or buy a free card on this flop in version 2. I am not going strong at this pot with that flop and prefer to get as many more cards out as I can for the least amount of chips. More that any of the previous hands, it sucks not to have position on this on.

version 1. check/fold mode this early.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I'm getting at in my post for this hand. The 2 flush board hands, I play pretty standard and make the guy pay with TPTK which isn't unique to me.

I am not thrilled with the flop on hand 2 either which is why I adjust my play there as well to a point.

Hand 2 and hand 4 the way I play them have a greater chance of more postflop play. 1C5's play will limit that across the board. Thats what I'm pondering now.

That said, I'm not thrilled with going broke in level 1 on AKs or o.

[Sabrazack]

I am currently playing the 10+1 and i am probably going to the felt with TPTK unless there are 2 ppl all in infront of me. I have just seen so many stupid ALL-IN:s that i cant bring myself to fold it unless im obviously beat.

[Scuba Chuck]

All of this discussion is getting away from many posters opinions about raising more preflop to chase away pairs hunting for a set. Raising to t60 invites these opportunities. Frankly, I hate level 1 because of our small starting chip stacks. I definately can see a reason to limp with AK, but even that is a recipe for disaster.

I run into pairs chasing sets, and going to the felt against them more often than I run into KJ going to the felt. I am still very torn about how I want to play this hand.

Edit: In all of these hands, I haven't seen anyone advocate checking.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dunno, maybe there's something more to these hands, but they all look like pretty clear bets to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm missing something. I'm interested in knowing what Adanthar is referring to when he eludes to outplaying them postflop. That being said, I'm also interested in finding out where if any, people will get away from any of these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think "outplay" is often misunderstood to mean "do something fancy." here, i'm going to outplay my opponents by value betting them to death and stacking them off with their TPGK against my TPTK.

i'll get away from a hand if it the action is i bet, villain 1 pushes and villain 2 calls. maybe if it goes bet-call-push. but if only one person shows interest, the pot's too big compared to the stacks after 3 people call your raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Some of them have straight and flush draw potential. Some of them have multiple broadway cards (so potential for 2 pair) showing. Does anyone get away from TPTK, or is everyone going to the felt here?

[/ QUOTE ]

these are all double-edge swords. the possibility of flushes/straights also means the possibilities of flush draws / straight draws + pairs that might push. 2 broadways add draws similarly. maybe at the higher levels the play is different but i view AK as a club to bludgeon those people who call my utg raise with KQ and stack off with one pair.

now if i bet the flop and the flush draw gets there, i might reevaluate. but till it does - or till many people show a lot of interest - i'm planning on stacking off.

[Unarmed]

Scooby, these hands really aren't all that subjective. Can you go to your PT database and pull out some AK hands that gave you trouble and post them? I mean, when you raise AK preflop and hit you should normally be betting. It's not until after the flop lead that the hand can start to get real interesting.

[11t]

Yah, if you bet and somebody calls it feels like you are pretty far behind on all of these flops.

I dunno, this is one of the reasons I play the Stars turbo tournaments, the 1500 chip stacks allow for a lot more post flop play and you could bet the pot, get raised and be able to fold and still have plenty of chips for playing later whereas if you bet substantially and get raised you are most likely crushed and are now short stacked.

[pokerlaw]

Hands 1-3: NICE! I hit my AK with top pair, but there are draws on each one (including the possiblity someone hit two pair on the KQ flops, etc..). I bet 3/4ths the pot - 175 seems about right.

Hand 4 - I dont want to lead this with a bet. I feel that checking will let me know how the other players feel about their hands w/o sacrificing a lot of chips. assuming someone does have an ace of clubs and hasn't hit the flush, there are 8 clubs left, and the 9c gives me a st8 flush, I dont mind letting everyone see a free card.

If i bet t150 or so and someone raises me, i am in a sticky situation (especially w t800 starting, i play t1500). If someone bets after I check the flop, I will almost definetly raise them; but i don't want to be the one being checkraised.

If it checks around and no club falls, i bet 2/3rds the pot.

If it checks around and a club hits, (includng the A or 9) I check, though I am not sure if that play is good.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Scooby, these hands really aren't all that subjective. Can you go to your PT database and pull out some AK hands that gave you trouble and post them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it would be more subjective if I created some follow up action, which I had originally intended, but this stupid job thing is getting in the way.

For example, on the AJ board. You bet t200, button calls, and BB calls. Turn is a blank (no club). Now, where do you stand? You've got t260 invested into this pot, with two cold callers. BB checks to you on the turn. Now what?

Or, on the KQ board. You bet t200. And you're reraised. IMO, betting t60 invites a lot of KQ, KJ, AJ hands to play with you, and leaving you either in a conundrum as how to move forward, or looking at a popup that says you've finished in XXXX place.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Yah, if you bet and somebody calls it feels like you are pretty far behind on all of these flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? All of those boards looked quite draw heavy, meaning that in general people will be more likely to hang around with hands that you're beating. In most of the cases, the draws are so prominent that betting is in order because it's very likely with three others in the pot that they've got a piece to draw to.

[Unarmed]

First one - Push. Forget BB, he'd C/R a big hand on the flop because button (or you) can very easily be drawing. I'd accept arguments for checking the turn as well to get some information from button.

Second one - So what happened? I bet pot and get C/R'd by BB on a rainbow board? I'm folding.

It'd be better if you posted whole hands though, including stack sizes and whatever reads you have. Also, getting called PF by KJ/AJ/KQ is a good thing when you have AK. I know you know that... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[adanthar]

Argh, you posted this in 5 separate posts so I have to keep moving back and forth between the reply page and the posts...don't do that, k?

The first three are all 'bet 175, go from there' hands. Sometimes I get stacked or make bad folds, especially on that third one where I have the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif so the flush draw's probably not out. It happens. More often, when the action goes bet/raise/push, I can fold where most people at that limit wouldn't.

Hand 4 is wacky and I may just push it, especially without a club. If someone flopped a made flush, good for them. Otherwise, a set calls, 2 pair almost definitely calls, occasionally KQ calls too. Once in a while AQ, no club decides I'm bluffing. Cool.

Finally, you are assuming there's a difference between a raise to 60 and one to 75 or 90 as to people calling 77. Some people will make a distinction; most will not. And keeping the pot smaller has a lot of nice benefits, like being able to chase the flush draws out *on the turn*.

[adanthar]

OK, I've got a little over a hundred level 1 AK hands in my primary PT database so I'm going to pretend the sample size means something. Let's see where I got stacked:

1)Raised to 50 after 2 limpers (I dunno, this one was way back and I probably sucked), hit TPTK, turned top 2 on a not too scary board ran into turned 65s flush.

2)Raised to 75 after 1 limper, got called by 97s who hit a straight flush draw on an A86 board. He bets the pot, I call, he bets a tiny amount on a 7 turn, I push, he calls off his other 500 chips and hits a 9.

3)Raise to 125 from the BB after 4 limpers. Q9s calls and hits an A99 flop.

4)A8o minraises, I reraise to 125 shortstacked, he calls, I push an 862 flop (I'd also do this with aces there I think, that hand was a while ago too)

5)I coldcall a raise, KJo calls behind me and hits a KJx flop and a K turn. Meh.

6)Some dude with kings limp/reraises in MP after a limper. Meh.

7)I raise AKs, QQ reraises, I push, 55 overcalls both of us a bunch of times and hits a set. Meh.

That's the 7 times I lost more than 500 chips in level 1 out of 128 that I've got in there. I've won over 500 14 times and both AKs and AKo are very solidly green. I think you're overestimating how easy it is to lose your stack on a bad board here.