Axo isolate to showedown 100% of time

[dantheman_05]

i may be crazy on this theory so let me have it /images/graemlins/grin.gif
this is gonna be longwinded too but hang in there it gets good
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif is a 57.7% favorite over K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif (42.3% dog) heads up according to cardplayer's odds calculator. i am tyring to exploit this advantage through the entire hand vs a loose player (40 vpip or more).
the theory is the high vpip player limps and its folded to me..i have to be sitting pretty on the button..i raise to isolate the unsuspecting player. now if one of the blinds calls the raise all bets are off and the strategy is out the window. but if i get HU with our limping friend i am going to showdown 95% of them time.
so it doesnt matter what the flop brings, i am betting 100%. if he check raises me then i have a decision to make. see i cant put him on a hand or even a range of hands because he is so loose. his check raise should be a rare thing because normally high vpip players are passive post flop, so when he cr i call and fold turn unimproved. typically he will just call the flop bet and we will see the turn.
now if i have a pair by the turn i should continue to bet and play the hand accordingly, but if i only have ace high (majority of the time) i will check the turn so i cant be check raised when he has a hand.
the turn check sometimes induces a bluff and i will call his river lead 100% of the time. if he checks so will i.
this entire strategy is based on the idea that i will win the majority of the time when we go to showdown based on my 57% statistic. so the idea is to showdown cheaply and sometimes i will pickup the pot on a flop bet. i only have 2500 hands in PT so i cant share any stats on my theory. i used to play full ring games, but enjoy the action of 6 max so i have imigrated to those tables.
so let the critics loose and begin my execution. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Surfbullet]

I personally don't like making blanket statements about doing things "100%" of the time - poker is a complex, subtle game and it's important to consider all the information you have available in each hand.

One of the issues is that he may fold his KQ/KJ/KT/Kx at some point, and call more often when he hits, so you can't rely on your 57% edge because he's not taking k-high to showdown 100% of the time.

Additinally, there are going to be times when he has A3 and you have A2, and noone improves. There definitely are times when taking A-high to showdown is a good plan against this player, and raising to isolate a predictable player is also good - but take into account the texture of the board, how he's played unpaired hands previously, etc, when making your decision.

Surf

[wheelz]

That about sums it up.

It's good that you now see how much more you might need to go to showdown at a 6-max table, but there's much more to it than that.

[dantheman_05]

the 100% comment was just for effect. i am thinking of the overall picture here. this guys plays so many hands i want to showdown my ace against him. say i play 50k hands per month, i wonder how many times this situation will come up. sometimes he wil have a better kicker than mine. but sometimes he will payme off when i hit a an ace and he makes second pair. thats another advantage of raising preflop, b/c i normaly will have the odds in my favor and i am getting more $ in the pot. but overall i will play tens of thousands of hands and i think this theory will work over time. if i am the favorite before the flop i should showdown as much as possible in this situation.

[wheelz]

Well yes, you should show down your ace highs a lot against LAGs, but that doesn't mean it's profitable to be raising with ace-rag just because they've limped.

[Victor]

your line works well against lags.

against loose passives you should follow through with a bet on the turn and check behind on the riv.

[sy_or_bust]

(posting blind)

This fails, because "our limping friend" may fold on any street, and will frequently do so. This has many implications. For instance, if you reach the river A-high, you're typically going to be a substantial dog, making a bet bad. A similar principle operates on the turn (i.e. you're much less likely to be ahead UI). Factor in the hands he will occasionally have that dominate you, and your play has considerable -EV.

Never ignore information. Use every card and every action to evaluate the situation and find the best play.

[Derek in NYC]

Isolating a limper doesn't seem like a winning strategy. The BB will be getting 4.5:1 to call, or 5.5:1 to call if you consider the implied value of the original limper calling to close the action. Since he'll make a pair 35% of the time on the flop, he can call with a number of hands.

I think isolation plays only really work against a LAGgy preflop raiser, so you can make it 2 bets cold to the BB. I personally dont isolate with A-rag. My isolation plays usually are something like A8 or A9, all medium pairs, and unsuited broadway cards KJ or better, and suited JQ or better.

[dantheman_05]

[ QUOTE ]
The BB will be getting 4.5:1 to call, or 5.5:1 to call if you consider the implied value of the original limper calling to close the action. Since he'll make a pair 35% of the time on the flop, he can call with a number of hands.

[dantheman_05]

if UTG limps (45vpip/6pfr), mp folds, co folds, button raises (25vpip/13pfr), sb folds, your BB ....what hands will you see the flop with, Derek?

[TStoneMBD]

i stopped midway in your post and havent read any replies, but to be as helpful as i can, it does not work. your interest in becoming a creative player is the right direction, but your logic is seriously flawed and you are not ready to isolate loose players with A2o and probably arent ready to isolate loose players with A7o by your level of understanding. to sum things up, preflop equity is not the case at hand. yes A2o has positive equity against a 60% vpip player, but your hand has reverse implied odds. that is what counts.

[dantheman_05]

by reverse implied odds i guess you mean if we make it to showdown normaly i am behind? btw do you have any interesting tips to share...ways to play on another level?

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
by reverse implied odds i guess you mean if we make it to showdown normaly i am behind? btw do you have any interesting tips to share...ways to play on another level?

[/ QUOTE ]

You will probably only get action when you're beaten with A3o. If you pair your ace, it will be a scarecard for a normal opponent, who probably wont' continue unless they either have an Ace with a better kicker or can beat top pair. If you don't pair, the only times they continue are when they can beat Ace high.

I understand where you're trying to go, but you're forgetting that the player is making decisions based on his hand, the board, and what he thinks your hand is. If he was SO BAD that he called to the river, knuckled, then checked to see if he had paired and called if he had (I've seen players like this in 3/6 B&M games), then what you're talking about might work better. Otherwise, your equity advantage is going to be hard to exploit.

I got into an argument with a friend of mine similar to this one. I saw him raise A6o to isolate a limper in a 3/6 game. The argument was which hand was higher EV to isolate a limper there: KQs or A6o. He was a tournament player, and used to thinking in all-in mode, "ace high is the best hand, yadda yadda."

Anyway, we ran it in TTH and the KQs hand was 20x the EV of A6o, even though A6o was 'the better hand.' This is mostly due to reverse implied odds.

[dantheman_05]

well after reading all of the posts i ahve decided to stop making this play. sounds like the bb will call too often. and the limper will likely bet his pair on the river once i check the turn and i will have to call.