How to play it?

[SmokinGroove]

Playing in a 6 handed cash game table a hand came up which I am interested in hearing what people would do when faced with the situation


In the BB I receieve 8s9s. UTG calls and UTG+1 raises 4xBB 5th position reraises 10xBB infront and is called by the button. Small blind folds and I call. UTG folds as does UTG+1 killing the damn pot size.

I am absolutely sure both players are on pockets higher than jacks and not big slick or low pockets as they are players I know well and they have pretty telling betting patters.

The flop comes out 10s 7s 8h . It is up to you to act first, what do you do here knowing you are up against AA/KK, AA/QQ, KK/QQ?



Another lever to it, what if the turn is a blank A Q or K or a A Q K of spades. I would love some feedback on this as it was a very complicated hand IMO.


Stacks are real deep, 10K and 2x15K

[AceHiStation]

I'll throw out what will probably be a highly-critiqued line. Pot should be 35.5BBs if I calculated this right. If you put your opponents on overpairs(not including JJ)... you have 9 flush outs, 6 straight outs, 2 tripp outs, and 3 natural two pair outs(gotta be careful with board pairing). Total of 20 outs.

Ran this through pokerstove assuming AA/KK(didn't specify suits) and you're 62% to win. Given this situation I'm looking to get all of my money, and both the other stacks into the pot to gamble(Granted losing this stack will suck, you're playing for the long run).
I bet 15BBs at the pot looking for a raise from AA or KK to test the waters. Assuming you get this raise I look to push over the top all in and try and get as much money in there as I can. If they simply call I think I push the turn most of the time. I think AA/KK will either put you on a set or be too stubborn to lay it down and you'll take it there or get action... either way isn't bad.

-Ace

[mgsimpleton]

i like a pot sized lead so that when they push you can get all in... if you can get all in 3 way v. AA and KK this is the best situation you can hope for, ever. you're a favorite against one, against two this is basically handing you EV on a silver platter. as long as you're ok with losing all your money, then pot sized lead, there will be a raise and maybe a reraise from the other overpair, then you can push... they might just both fold which would be great for your variance issues but if not then great as well, you've got a monster!

also you said what the stacks are in money but what the hell are the blinds? helpful to know how many BB's we're talking about here... if this is a 1/2 NL game, the answer's a little different than if it's 10/25 or something.

[thabadguy]

u wanna get as much money in on the flop as possible when ur ahead, any spade(other than As or Ks will kill ur action) ,a 9 would too.

[LuvDemNutz]

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i like a pot sized lead so that when they push you can get all in... if you can get all in 3 way v. AA and KK this is the best situation you can hope for, ever. you're a favorite against one, against two this is basically handing you EV on a silver platter. as long as you're ok with losing all your money, then pot sized lead, there will be a raise and maybe a reraise from the other overpair, then you can push... they might just both fold which would be great for your variance issues but if not then great as well, you've got a monster!

also you said what the stacks are in money but what the hell are the blinds? helpful to know how many BB's we're talking about here... if this is a 1/2 NL game, the answer's a little different than if it's 10/25 or something.

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You play goot.

[AceHiStation]

I'm curious to see the line OP took and the outcome... results? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Blackjack]

I wouldn't mind c/r all in on the flop here. If they fold, you win a decent sized pot plus their flop bets. If they call, you have a ton of outs to make your hand.

Blackjack

[captZEEbo1]

How deep are the stacks here?
I'm skeptical of this 10x bb pf call oop (seems marginal at best without these stacks being pretty damn deep). I'd try to represent a set here, by leading pot, getting raised, and pushing, or c/r pot. You have good equity. Hell, open pushing wouldn't even be bad lol (not that you'll have fold equity), but you want as much money in this pot as possible.

[Blackjack]

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Stacks are real deep, 10K and 2x15K

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[thabadguy]

The only place i know of with such deep stacks is FW, any1 else know of another b&m with such a deep game please enlighten me.

[edge]

Um, what are the blinds? Calling T9s out of position is cool if it's a 5/10 game, but if it's a 50/100 game, it's maybe not so cool. Also, if it's a 5/10 game, you're not going to be able to get it in on the flop, so the lead-reraise line won't work too well (unless you make a huge overbet reraise all-in that probably won't be called by anything except J9).

[captZEEbo1]

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Stacks are real deep, 10K and 2x15K

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he didn't say what the blinds were, silly. Stack sizes are irrelevant, without knowing blinds.

[mgsimpleton]

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Stacks are real deep, 10K and 2x15K

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he didn't say what the blinds were, silly. Stack sizes are irrelevant, without knowing blinds.

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dude, it doesn't matter how big the blinds are, 15K is A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY. with that in mind, i wouldn't put money in the pot unless i had the NUTS!!! GET OUT!!

[savman]

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Stacks are real deep, 10K and 2x15K

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he didn't say what the blinds were, silly. Stack sizes are irrelevant, without knowing blinds.

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dude, it doesn't matter how big the blinds are, 15K is A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY. with that in mind, i wouldn't put money in the pot unless i had the NUTS!!! GET OUT!!

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Eff that! Lead the pot....hope inital raiser and button go nuclear then ask the player next to you to help you shove every chip you have into the pot then ask dealer if they accept credit cards. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[9cao]

Ignoring any risk aversion you might have (based on you preflop call I am doubting any), you want as much money in as possible. I say check the flop, and let the seat 5 (original raiser) make a big bet, hopefully button calls, and you can push.

It would be disaster if they check behind but based on your reads, it is almost certain one of them will bet. You are a favourite to win against any hand other than TT and I really don't think any hand other than TT can call your all-in but I think you are in a great +EV spot.

[SmokinGroove]

srry 10/20 NL is the game and here is how it went down

I bet out 1000 into the 700 pot and am called by both.

The turn comes 6s for the straight flush. I bet 1000 and am called by the first player and button folds.

The river is Ah and I bet 2500, he thinks for a while then calls and mucks. He said he had AA and was set to auto-muck. I probably could have done some other things differently but 535BB or 10,700 pot is never anything to scoff at.

[Big_Jim]

Way to read between the lines on that one.

[mgsimpleton]

if it's 10/20 NL here's what i'm thinking... you got 500 BB's to work with. you need a raise on the flop, so i think overbetting the pot is a little strong because it would make them hesitant to raise.

stlil check raising all in with 500BB's is stupid as hell. you don't get nearly enough money in the pot... you have the best hand right now, by a long shot. i'm not looking to take down 40BB's... especially when i called 10BB's preflop with this and hit a miracle flop!!!

lead for 3/4 pot (same lead you'd make with AT or JJ or something)... give them a reason to raise you but don't raise weak enough where you scream monster and a) have them call you or b) still not get enough in the pot when you shove.

lead for 3/4... they call they call, you're still the fave (then maybe play the straight flush a little weaker than you did? i don't know tough to get paid there)... but if they raise then all of a sudden you have 150BB's or something in ther,e you can basically push or at least make it 300BB's to go (pot sized raise)... this will ensure chips in the middle, which is your goal.

this isn't just a huge straight flushd raw, it's a straight flush draw with a pair, THE BEST HAND.... i am not ok with taking down a medium sized pot. anyway glad it worked out but i think the overbet is the method that gets the least in the pot on the flop...

[ggbman]

If your read is correct, i think the chances are low that two people have QQ-AA and it gets checked through. I would make a hefty check-raise on the flop. If the money goes in, you have phenomenal equity and are happy, however this way you can probably win the pot outright, and it's always nice to win a sizable pot with a pait of eights /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[cero_z]

Hi,

I'm going to take an unpopular line here. You don't HAVE to get all in on the flop against these two guys, or especially against just one of them, if your read is accurate.

Yes, it is hugely +EV if you can somehow get both of them in (you make about 5K if you all put in 10K), and they have the hands you put them on. If you get it all in against only one of them, then hope he doesn't have JsJx, against which you're 51% to win. If he has AsAx, you're 60%. This is like putting it all in with AQ vs. KJ (or 98s) pre-flop.
--------------BUT---------------------

If these two are somehow bad enough to be pegged as clearly on big PPs as you said, and then get all-in on that flop with one pair, you don't need those 60/40 edges so much. I realize that 60/40 is a nice edge, but you should be getting a 90/10 or better spot soon, in a 6 handed game. Maybe even in this hand, if you don't go off.

There are a couple of things to consider here: what will you do if you lose 10k in this hand? If you'll rebuy to cover, that favors getting all-in. If one of them will quit if they win this potentially enormous pot, that favors not getting all-in. If these factors are not favorable, you may want to just call their inevitable bets. Obviously, if they force you all-in, it's a somewhat different story. But don't kid yourself too much about folding equity against guys who play as bad as you claim.

As it stands, I hate your bet on the turn. One of them is bound to have a big spade, but if it isn't the As, you may lose them for good with that bet, when they're drawing stone dead. Just check it; they're terrible, and won't see through that play. Betting is a huge mistake unless you have an airtight read that they're going to play. Even then, you may get one of them to bet.

Glad to see you dragged it; too bad another spade didn't fall.

[cero_z]

Hi thabadguy,

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The only place i know of with such deep stacks is FW, any1 else know of another b&m with such a deep game please enlighten me.

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There are tons. Bellagio 10/20 (where I suspect this hand took place). Commerce, from what I've heard. The Borgata, at times. Many of the NL games that take place on the various tournament trail stops feature stacks deeper than this (1000BBs+).

[SmokinGroove]

thanks for the responses I agree that I could have gotten more out of it in retrospect but I don't think I could have gotten all the chips in the middle and still get action, but maybe. And yeah another spade would have been beautiful as it is the A on the river is what enabled me to make 5K more