flops a monster....

[gomberg]

Some history - 5-10. I limped early w/ JJ about 15 minutes before, called a raise from LP and stacked him. He had raised light w/ ATo, hit trip tens, and I hit a J on the turn. A little later I had limped w/ ATs, same LP player raises, I fold. He shows JJ. I tell him I had AT. We both laugh - ironic.

He has a little over 1k at this point, I have over 2k. I limp early w/ 33, same LP raises to $40 (his standard), I call. Flop is 233 2tone. What's your plan for the hand?

[thabadguy]

Is he loose, tight..etc., some more background would help. I would bet flop, make it look like i dont want fd to see a free card. Check call turn, lead river.

[Jason Strasser]

Good line.

I also like check raising the flop because of the presence of a flush draw. Then check/call turn lead river is ok, or just fire the turn as well.

-Jason

[thabadguy]

I dont like CR'ing flop , just shows too much strength IMO, also i dont CR much, so if i did that, it might scare villain.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
Is he loose, tight..etc., some more background would help.

[/ QUOTE ]

seemed to raise light in late position but was decent postflop. Didn't do anything out of line. Bet small to induce a call / raise on a TTx flop w/ AT on one hand. Had also seen me CR w/ JJ on a TTx board.

[thabadguy]

what do u mean raise light?
raise small? or raise loose?

[gomberg]

raise loose w/ position

[thabadguy]

Then i like the line i gave u, checking turn ..u need to have him make a hand.
If he was tight, then it would be better betting turn, that board doesnt look too bad if u have AA or KK.

[Blackjack]

Def. don't C/R the flop unless you want to put him on the defensive.

[Jason Strasser]

Hmm...

I dont CR a ton, but I do it enough where its not going to make my opponent fold a hand here.

-Jason

[Blackjack]

Why not check/call flop, weak bet the turn, and fire out on the river again?

[kado]

i think you have to lead out on flop and you can just sit and hope he is sitting on a big hand. check the turn shows a little fear and depending on his bet(strong or weak) you can see if you can get his stack before the river even comes.

[Blackjack]

Kado, you're going to get a continuation bet out of him.. and then another one of the turn easily..

[gomberg]

It seems this is a function of how much you'll get from a continuation bet vs. hoping he has a big hand.

If he has a big hand (any pair pretty much), he'll probably at least call a flop bet and / or raise. If he doesn't he could fold or call and try to take the pot away from you on the turn (or he may hit an overcard and play for a cheaper showdown).

I think the best way to stack him is to bet out, but I'm not sure it's the most +EV play here (read, you won't stack him too often but will get some bets out of him a lot of the time). He will at least fire a continuation bet though.

[Blackjack]

If he makes a continuation bet and actually has a hand, you're going to get paid off when you C/R the turn. If he doesn't have a hand, you're insuring that you at least pick up 2 bets on the flop and the turn.

Blackjack

[gomberg]

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't bet the turn if I checked twice to him if I chk / call the flop based on previous hands.

[fsuplayer]

lead the flop. i had a very similar hand, lemme see if i can dig it up.

yup, here it is....

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($1108)
UTG ($1078)
Hero ($2280)
CO ($1072.75)
Button ($4388.51)
SB ($990)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $10, CO calls $10, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $55</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $45, CO folds.

Flop: ($135) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $130</font>, Button calls $130.

Turn: ($395) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $300</font>, Button calls $300.

River: ($995) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $993</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1986</font>, Hero calls $802 (All-In).

Final Pot: $4776

hehe, good times.

[thabadguy]

KK?

[gomberg]

That's exactly what I was hoping for. I lead $100, he folds /images/graemlins/frown.gif Oh well, I was lucky to get quads but unlucky that he didn't have a hand.

[Blackjack]

IF he has a hand.. check/call flop and checkraise the turn is the best way to make the most money out of it.

Disagree? What line would you take to extract the most money out of him when he has a hand?

Blackjack

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
IF he has a hand.. check/call flop and checkraise the turn is the best way to make the most money out of it.

Disagree? What line would you take to extract the most money out of him when he has a hand?

Blackjack

[/ QUOTE ]

this is probably the worst way to play against a decent player, it screams 'huge hand'.

i like a lead on the flop and go from there.

a check call, lead turn isnt bad either.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Rotating Rabbit]

dont you just love it when they put in 2k drawing dead

[LuvDemNutz]

I like check-call flop, check-raise turn.

I got stacked that way when someone flopped quads on me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[piki]

I think this depends on your table image. If you are someone who can bet a draw, bet. If you are someone who only bets with strength, call. You only called preflop so he puts you on a middle pair or some overcards. You want to keep that impression.

[Jason Strasser]

Am i the only one who checkraises the flop with air and draws and feels obligated to please the woman (shania) by check raising big hands here followed by a check on the turn?

Also, you almost always get a continuation bet HU vs decent opponents so you do win something. I wouldnt recommend leading here unless you lead a lot.

-Jason

[thabadguy]

wow, i hope u had nothing less than a boat to get stacked with that line.

[fsuplayer]

yeah, the flop CR is sweet too. i forgot to mention that in my above post.

personally, i lead at more flops than i CR, so i would lead that one, but you seem to CR more.

[thabadguy]

Who the f*ck is shania?

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
Who the f*ck is shania?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you already know her from reading your posts! You just didn't know her name.


Shania! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=headsup&amp;Number=1705328&amp;fpa rt=&amp;PHPSESSID=)

Original Shania post (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=&amp;Number=533592&amp;page=&amp;view= &amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=)

EDIT: Found the original in the archives and added the link.

[thabadguy]

Wow!! Shania!
Im gonna call her Denise, id much rather please Denise Richards than Shania Twain.LOL

[Popinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow!! Shania!
Im gonna call her Denise, id much rather please Denise Richards than Shania Twain.LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

Blasphemer. Shania isn't about you, it's about that greater realm of poker truth that us mere mortals can someday dream of living in.

[thabadguy]

LOL

[LuvDemNutz]

Well I don;t remember specifics but I do remember that...

- I wasn't that deep
- I had KK and the board was all unders

and most importantly

It's HARD to put someone on quads.

Think about it - flop comes 644, turn is a 9 - it's not easy to simply let go of KK here.

Of course there are other factors such as image, stack sizes, reads, etc that I don't specifically remember.

Afterall, the fact that the board is paired makes it LESS likely that your opponent has a set.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, the flop CR is sweet too. i forgot to mention that in my above post.

personally, i lead at more flops than i CR, so i would lead that one, but you seem to CR more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm usually a leader w/ any hand I'm willing to put my stack in with (monster or great draw), + some bluffs that I'll fold if I get any action from (or go for barrell #2 if called). If I CR flop, it's usually because I read weakness somewhere and it usually = weakness for me, so it's something I may change in the future. w/ 100BB stacks, maybe a CRish strategy could work well, have never used it that much though.

[Blackjack]

[ QUOTE ]
Am i the only one who checkraises the flop with air and draws and feels obligated to please the woman (shania) by check raising big hands here followed by a check on the turn?

Also, you almost always get a continuation bet HU vs decent opponents so you do win something. I wouldnt recommend leading here unless you lead a lot.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line the most.. by far. C/R the flop and then check to him to induce another bet/bluff.

Screw the Check/Call Weak Bet Turn. This by far is the best line.

Blackjack

[psuasskicker]

Def. don't C/R the flop unless you want to put him on the defensive.

Agreed. I lead this flop for sure. PFR will either call or raise. If he calls, I'll lead the turn unless the flush card comes in which case - depending on how many remain in the pot - I might shoot for a check raise or check call lead river looking to get raised. If he raises, I call and lead the turn looking for him to move hard on me with an overpair.

Kado, you're going to get a continuation bet out of him.. and then another one of the turn easily

Easily? If you're PFR and someone limped and cold called your raise and that flop came out and he check called your flop bet, you wouldn't get a little suspicious? He's either on a flush draw or a solid hand. If that's the case, I want that pot pretty small (maybe I make a flush draw pay, but I don't want a big pot from him...someone solid suddenly turning passive sends up warning flags for me).

Disagree? What line would you take to extract the most money out of him when he has a hand?

Lead flop and call the raise, then lead the turn. My guess is it goes like this:
Flop: Bet 100, raise to 300, call...
Turn: Bet half his stack, he'll most likely move in, and if he just calls you just bet the rest on the river.

I wouldnt recommend leading here unless you lead a lot.

I definitely understand this point, but I lead out a ton so for me it would send up red flags for most players if I'm limping along.

Then again I tend to get paid off huge with hands like these...

- C -