Got to love it when this happens

[Griff]

I know a blind monkey can play this hand. Was there any way to make more $?

7 Card Stud High ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

Seat 1: $7.80
Seat 2: $10.85
Seat 4: $3.60
Hero: $16
Seat 6: $12
Seat 7: $7.75
Seat 8: $20

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/club.gif___brings-in___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx K/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls___calls___calls
Hero: J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif___raises___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif___raises___raises

4th Street - (20.40 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 4: xx xx K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Hero: J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets
Seat 8: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls

5th Street - (14.20 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 4: xx xx K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls
Hero: J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets
Seat 8: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls

6th Street - (18.20 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___folds
Seat 4: xx xx K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets___calls
Hero: J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___raises
Seat 8: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___calls

River - (24.20 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif xx___calls
Hero: J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets
Seat 8: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif xx___folds

Total pot: (26.20 BB)

Results:
Total pot $12.35 | Rake $0.50

Seat 4: [Kh 8c Kc 5s 4c Ah 5h]

Hero: [Jc Js Jh Jd 6d Qd 8s] (four of a kind, Jacks)

[Jeffage]

ALWAYS check 4th when you start rolled up and make quads. Obviously, this situation it worked out b/c you're against donkeys. But much of the time (esp. if you're playing a decent limit, but even if not) everyone will fold when you pair your door (fearing trips) and you will win a shite pot. Simply check and hope people make something that will pay you off later (even if this check is obviously suspect). This specific situation is actually addressed in Seven Stud for Adv. Players (which I highly recommend you read even though much of the advice doesn't apply to low limits).

Jeff

[beta1607]

Given the way you played it I don't really like the check raise on 6th. Giving up the initiative there just seems a little to suspicious. I think a lot of times people will all check behind or you will lose people who wont cold call 2 but would have called one. With that said I got (4A)AAA paid off yesterday to the river in my 10/20 game so I guess you just can't account for the fish thought process.

[BTirish]

You played it well. 26BB is a great pot. You went for the check-raise and it worked. Good job.

[Griff]

Thanks for the replys guys. I am new to stud and your thoughts give me some insight to the experienced stud player mind.

I thought checking 4th would send off alarms after capping 3rd. If I check 4th, do I just smooth call if someone bets? When do I put in a raise? 5th? 6th?

My thoughts on check raising 6th were that I was probably going to lose some players anyway whos draws had not developed. I "knew" /images/graemlins/wink.gif it wouldn't get checked around. I wanted them to think that I was on a draw that wasn't developing.

I know I am just in the kiddie pool right now but thanks for teaching a few lessons to a stud newbie.

[Andy B]

I like the bet on fourth myself. A check should look suspicious, and these guys are going to call anyway.

I don't understand the check-raise on sixth. I'm glad it worked and all, but low-limit stud players usually can't be trusted to bet your hand for you.

[Bartholow]

I think the advice of checking 4th is terrible here. Between the micro-limit and the fact that the pot got huge on 3rd, you will certainly get callers. If you check it will look suspicious, but that probably doesn't matter - the main point is that you will get called but noone is going to bet your hand for you.

[Jeffage]

Well, I don't have the text in front of me here, but I'm certain that is S&M's advice in their stud book (which has made me a good bit). It's just too likely that your 4th street bet will end the hand or lead to the hand ending on 5th. I'd give them a little rope.

Also, I don't think it's really worth arguing about since this situation might come up like once a year or something. In fact, I don't recall this ever happening to me.

Jeff

[beta1607]

7CSFAP assumes non-donkey opponents which is why some things in it will not be applicable in a low limit online game. If this were 30/60 and a player was capable of laying down aces or kings then I think that the advice in 7CSFAP would be correct in a similar situation

[Bartholow]

Yes, I've read the book /images/graemlins/wink.gif. But just like in holdem, not all of S&M's advice is applicable to all situations, and some is a bit outdated.

[set57hike]

On a low stakes table, a check is just throwing money away. These people love to see cards and probably won't believe you have trips anyway, let alone quads. Plus, it is incredibly suspicious when a paired door card *doesn't* get a bet.

In my experience, slow play at a low stakes table loses money.

[vintage_sara]

ALWAYS IS VERY STRONG. Haven't had it come up much, unfortuntately. But, I hope to find a time when I can go to war with someone!

[bigredlemon]

capping 3rd with a J door card and then checking after pairing that J? That's got to be showing more strength than doublebetting 4th.

[dandy_don]

Good post.


[ QUOTE ]
ALWAYS check 4th when you start rolled up and make quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Forgive me but I started this post around noon today and just got the time to finish it /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

Let's reverse the roles of this scenario and say that I'm in Seat 8 and have A's, and the two exposed J's "check" on 4th and does not try to get me to fold my A. Doesn't the "check" and "call" by the J's in this situation scream trips even on the low limit tables? (Based upon a limited info on the player).

[ QUOTE ]
4th Street - (20.40 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3 K___calls
Seat 4: xx xx K 5___calls
Hero: x x J J___ check ___ calls
Seat 8: A x xx A 7___bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to believe that I'd fling a bet (value bet) with A's and if the J's call, it's "proceed with caution" for me, which is not what the J's want in this situation.

I fold if one of the K's bet before me and watch the crash about to occur even with the other exposed K, correct?

What if I had a completely hidden "A's up" on 4th (neither the other A or the other paired card is exposed) and this same scenario occurs? Do you play it any different? Does it matter if it's completely hidden?

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
ALWAYS check 4th when you start rolled up and make quads.

[/ QUOTE ]come to think of it, I kind of agree with you.

You're hoping that villain makes two pair or trips, or give other people odds to draw to their straights and flushes. This also gives some them some doubt about whether you were overplaying your hand and now slowplaying down after realizing that you are behind.

[Griff]

Thanks for all of your input. There doesn't seem to be a clear answer as to the absolute best play on 4th. Your thoughts did give me some things to think about.