86s in the BB and a huge draw [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Nick C

06-07-2005, 05:23 AM

I don't know how much value this hand has as a post, but I do think that, because of the way it played out, it's probably more suited to this forum than to Small Stakes.

MP3 is 19/12/2.1 after 147 hands.

I don't know much about SB, but he's 18/0/1.3 after 16 hands.

Overall, the table was on the tight-aggressive side and wasn't particularly good.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (11.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

I think I had alternatives on the flop. And, actually, on the river, I briefly considered just calling but decided that would just be silly. (And at 0.5/1 or 1/2, I think it would be sillier still.) But it's the flop that I think is most debatable.

Thoughts?

einbert

06-07-2005, 05:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SB 3-bets, Hero calls,

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you have to cap the flop here.

I think the rest of the hand is pretty standard.

therockofgibraltar

06-07-2005, 05:38 AM

Is there a catch? It seems so obvious cap in this flop. Like you said, you have huge draw and I think you have pot equity edge against three opponents even when your flush ain't to the nuts.

Other streets I play the same way

stretch22

06-07-2005, 05:40 AM

is it right here to call the pre-flop raise in bad postion with that hand? i wouldn't have called.

Nick C

06-07-2005, 06:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a catch?

[/ QUOTE ]

The catch, as I see it, is that MP3 might fold to the cap. (Also, capping would possibly affect the play on future streets, possibly favorably and possibly unfavorably.)

It's possible that the potential for MP3 to fold isn't much of a concern at 0.5/1 and 1/2. (I don't remember that it was.)

So let me just say that he might. How much does that affect our thinking on the flop? (I don't have a definite answer here. It's entirely possible I misplayed the hand.)

einbert

06-07-2005, 06:05 AM

I think the chance of MP3 folding here, at 3/6 or any other level I've played at, are miniscule.

I think that capping the flop will somewhat increase the chance that the turn gets checked around when a blank hits, which is a reason to cap the flop if the return on the flop bets going in is exactly 0.

therockofgibraltar

06-07-2005, 06:07 AM

Oh, this were 3/6 and not micros! Here the flop raiser rarely folds to a cap. But even if he folds, doesn't we still have enough equity to cap this?

Nick C

06-07-2005, 06:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
is it right here to call the pre-flop raise in bad postion with that hand? i wouldn't have called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting an immediate 6:1 (and a probable 7:1) in a 4-way pot, I think this is a pretty easy call. In the 3/6, MP3 could be raising a lot of hands here, and most of them will be two bigger cards and not a big pair.

If MP2 limp-reraises, then that's annoying, but I didn't expect that to happen.

Nick C

06-07-2005, 07:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, this were 3/6 and not micros! Here the flop raiser rarely folds to a cap. But even if he folds, doesn't we still have enough equity to cap this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, since we'll make a straght or flush (if not both) by the river over half the time, there's a good chance we're a favorite heads-up.

Obviously, we're at least calling two when the action gets back to us on the flop. If we do that, MP3 is most likely calling one more bet.

If we cap instead, MP3 may call two more, and SB is pretty certain to call the cap as well. If they both call, we'd be getting 2:1 on that additional raise, with a probable equity edge.

If only SB calls, though, then we're just getting even money on the raise, albeit still as a possible favorite.

Also, showing a lot of strength with a call-cap can sometimes slow down the future action, which can be good or bad, depending on what falls. But if I call-cap and then the flush card hits on the turn -- well, that gives my opponents more reason to worry.

In any event, though, I'm starting to think Einbert is correct, and with a draw this strong, I probably should have just capped the flop. After all, if I just cold-call on the flop and then catch on the turn, SB will probably lead into me and then, when I raise, MP3 will be faced with two cold.

If I miss, though, MP3 may call again on the turn after I do (as actually happened), giving me 2:1 (on the turn action) to continue chasing, which under the circumstances is about the same as 0:0 (if I get the free river Einbert is talking about).

On the other hand, if I cap the flop, and SB decides to lead into me on the turn anyway, and MP3 decides to give up on the turn, when he wouldn't have if I'd just cold-called the flop, then that's not so great.

This probably sounds kind of muddled. In any event, I think it's complicated.