How to play a flush draw?

[Pirc Defense]

Some people advocate getting as much money into the pot as possible if you are on the nut flush draw. I've also read where if you feel that your opponent is on a flush draw, you should do what is necessary to charge him for his draw.

I'm having a hard time reconciling these two notions. With a less than 50% chance of hitting your draw, you're putting the maximum money in when you don't have the best of it. Not only that, but you're also charging yourself as much as possible to do so.

My gut says that it is proper to get your money in when you are on a nut flush draw, but I can't objectively figure out why this should be so. Can anyone demonstrate whether it is good or bad to put the maximum amount of money into the pot when you are on the nut flush draw (assumes the board does not pair)?

Thanks in advance.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Pirc,
Just my thoughts mind you, but...

When you have the made hand that is being drawn against, you'd raise to make the draw expensive... hoping to knock other callers out as well... since any more than 2 callers for a 4 card flush on the flop is giving the drawer correct pot odds to call in general. (2 to 1 to make a draw by river, right?) In general, least with simulations I did a long time ago with stud, the made hand is most likely to win. But, many drawers against you... collectively... often end up drawing out on you. You have the edge on any single drawer... but not against the whole table.

If you are drawing, "as much money as possible" might mean not to raise, if it will cause potential callers to fold.

Summary:

You da drawer... try to create best pot odds for the draw.
You da "AA"... try to ruin the drawer's pot odds. Better yet, get heads up.

The tactics you might choose depend on the players and thier hands.

So don't think "put maximum in the pot". Think about how to wangle the pot size to your advantage.

Granted, a concept I don't have down myself either.

Anyway, let'see what the gallery has to say. Maybe we'll both learn something.

Maybe someone has a good overview of the issues that is concise.

Sincerely,
AA

[laxrulz777]

obviously it depends on the number of people and the size of the pot... say a decent pot and 5 people (including you)... the logic is that you're a favorite to win... there may be one or more other flush draws that increase your pot odds and you're helped out by KNOWING that you will NOT be 2nd best (i.e. you'll put no bad money into the pot on the river)... so in most situations you're EV is positive and so betting is the right thing to do...

i hope that was coherent enough

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Can anyone demonstrate whether it is good or bad to put the maximum amount of money into the pot when you are on the nut flush draw (assumes the board does not pair)?


[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the number of players in the hand.

If you have a 4-flush on the flop, you are 2-1 against making the flush by the river. If you assume you will only win when you make the flush, this means you need to get 2 bets into the pot for every 1 bet you put in. So if you have 2 opponents, you are breaking even. If you have more than 2 opponents, you are making money. If you have only 1 opponent, you are losing money.

If you have a made hand, you want your opponent to pay to make his flush. You don't care how many people are in the hand because you are making money off every bet that goes in.

Here's an example:

You - A /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif
Opp1- K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
Opp2- Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif
Opp3- J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Flop: K /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Plugging this into twodimes, we find these results:

Holdem Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Kc 5c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kd 492 60.00 328 40.00 0 0.00 0.600
Ac 2c 289 35.24 531 64.76 0 0.00 0.352
Qh 5h 1 0.12 819 99.88 0 0.00 0.001
Jd Td 38 4.63 782 95.37 0 0.00 0.046

Notice that even though you are an underdog to the KK, you will still win over 35% of the time. For every bet that goes in on the flop, you are getting .35 bet back. So if you bet and everyone calls, you are getting .35 * 4 =1.4 bets back, which is a net win of .4 bets. If you bet and KK raises and everyone calls, you are winning .8 bets. If you reraise, you're winning 1.2 bets.

Now if you are heads-up against the KK, you will only win 33% of the time. In this case, you are losing money every time a bet goes into the pot.

In most games, especially at low limits, you will have a large number of players in the hand. Even though you might be an underdog to one or two of your opponents, you are winning more than your "fair share", so you are making money on the bets that go in.

[Andy B]

The made hand will usually be favored over the draw, but both hands will be money favorites over the rest of the field; they both gain equity from the other players in the pot.

[MarkD]

My take on this is:

On the flop if more than two players are going to call I'd put as much money in as I could because you mathematically gain a portion of each bet put into the pot in this situation. If less than two were going to call then I'd try to keep it cheap because you are losing money with each bet that you put in (but you are likely still gaining money overall because of the cash already in the pot).

On the turn I need &gt; 4 players to try to put the maximum in (4.2:1 against you hitting now). Less than 4 I'd keep it cheap.

Quick math for the turn assuming 4.2:1 against you hitting.

EV = # bets * # callers * 1/5.2 - # bets * (1-1/5.2)
EV = 4 * 5 * 1/5.2 - 4 * (1-1/5.2)
EV = 0.77 (Assuming I used the calculator right, I hate when I don't have my calculator around).

You gain 0.77 bets by putting the maximum in despite the fact that you are behind atm.

[Ray Zee]

when its obvious you will get action with your draw you bet it only when you have enough players to make your odds okay. or when you can now get a free card if you miss on 4th street. or by betting you can win the pot without getting called. or you can knock out a player who may beat you if you hit an overcard to make a bigger pair. or to confuse the plaers so you can get called on the river if you hit.
most times you should push your draws even headup unless you see you may be up against a bigger one.

[tewall]

The two concepts are only apparnetly in conflict. With the nut flush draw you want to get money in the pot given enough opponents. This increases your gain on the average.

With a made hand, if you don't bet then the opponent with the flush draw gets infinite odds. So it's to the advantage of the made hand to bet in order charge the drawing hands.

Given n opponents, only one of them has a made hand. (made in this context is synonomous with best) The others are all drawing. If the one with the made hand doesn't bet, all the others could get infinite odds if no one bets. Of the ones that are drawing, some drawing hands have better odds than others. Some of the drawing hands may have odds so good that they actually benefit as more money gets in the pot. Others just have good enough odds to call because of the dead money already in the pot. Others don't have odds and should get out.

Here's and example. Say the betting goes crazy pre-flop so there's 40 small bets in the pot at the flop. There's so much money in the pot that anyone with any sort of draw at all should stay in, so all would have odds to call, because of the dead money already in the pot. The best hand should bet to charge all the chasing hands a premium (and hoping that they will incorrectly drop out, if they have odds to chase). The better drawing hands should bet themselves (or raise) because their odds are good enough that they are building a pot for themselves as incremental money goes in. It's possible for everyone putting money in the pot to be playing correctly.

In real life people often chase when they don't have odds, so betting or raising with made hands or good draws is even more profitable.

Good question!

[tewall]

The last part brings up an interesting point. By pushing a draw, you set up the possibility of winning the pot yourself by your aggressiveness later on even if you miss. This is an easy heads up strategy. With many opponents you build up your equity in the pot. At some point your in between the two extremes (or maybe they overlap -- hope this is clear). That is, on the flop maybe you bet hoping for callers, but don't get as many as you hope, so you switch horses midstream, so to speak, and try to steal the hand by your agressiveness if you don't make your hand, even though that wasn't your original intention.

[folded_a_monster]

There are so many different situations in which you can have a flush draw and it may or may not be correct to raise it, bet it, or even call it. There are three key concepts I use that explain why I always bet a nut flush draw. 1) Flush hits and your a winner (unless you get boated). Anybody calling with the same draw does not put you on the nut so it almost always gets capped when the flush hits. 2) You have an ace which, unless its obvious that the leader has 2 pair or better, usually gives you 3 more outs. 3) You put yourself in position to buy the pot if the callers were also drawing and might have a small pair. This is why I will bet the turn in late position even if I could get a free card........ Just my views on playing the nut draw.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Pudley,
Now there's an explanation I can follow.

Know of any tables that summarize these sorts of situations so I can know how much of an underdog I am against common situations?

Clearly, if one can read the opponents reasonably well, one should be making this calculation before folding, rather than saying, "Hmmm... he's got two pair, I got a draw... get out.."

It's more like, "Hmm... ok, I'm an under dog against hand XX but the money justifies it..."

Problem is knowing in all cases just how much money does justify it.

Of course if your reads are wrong, you might end up in -EV land anyway. Especially when drawing against the nuts or whatnot.

Then there's the case where they may have you beat at the minute... you have the pot odds to draw... but do you... since they may improve too..

Anyway, it would seems that knowing the numbers for the most frequent encounters could be of some serious value.

Sincerely,
AA

[pudley4]

There are too many different possible situations that arise for anyone to calculate tables for each and every one. For the most part, if you are drawing just count your outs and see if the pot is offering the correct odds to continue. If you're pretty sure that hitting your hand will give you the winner, then the pot odds (or implied odds) will tell you whether to continue or drop out.

If you're not sure whether you'd win even if you hit your hand (say you have a flush draw but there is a pair on the board), then the pot odds need to be much greater in order for you to continue.

[Louie Landale]

A big pair against a small 4-flush on 4th street (stud) is about even money: he'll make the flush a tad less than half the time, but will make 2-pair to snag it just enough of the rest of the time. A single flush over-card tips it comfortably in the draw's favor.

However, with other players in, the best hand but mostly the best draw BOTH make money; usually LOTS of money, at the expense of the lesser hands and draws.

The trick is to insure that YOU do have the "best" draw: capping with the 2nd best draw is pretty much a disaster.

- Louie