4 hands, 3 big slicks, 10th place

[dfscott]

I'm getting really tilty lately due to:

a) bad beats,
b) bad luck and,
c) bad play.

Help me figure out which category these hands fit into...

(Ignore the second hand, I just cut and pasted the entire tournament)

#Game No : 2166948565
***** Hand History for Game 2166948565 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12875472 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, June 06, 22:14:27 EDT 2005
Table Table 11226 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: frouger ( $800 )
Seat 3: dfscott1 ( $800 )
Seat 4: bobuh ( $800 )
Seat 5: Lingy ( $800 )
Seat 6: cashintheban ( $800 )
Seat 7: riverxrat ( $800 )
Seat 8: bizzzzyb5 ( $800 )
Seat 9: Lenny136 ( $800 )
Seat 10: skring ( $800 )
Seat 2: bdubs12 ( $800 )
Trny:12875472 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Kh As ]
bizzzzyb5 folds.
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
Lenny136 calls [15].
skring folds.
frouger raises [30].
bdubs12 folds.
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
dfscott1 raises [60].
bobuh calls [60].
Lingy folds.
cashintheban folds.
riverxrat folds.
Lenny136 calls [45].
frouger calls [30].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5d, Ad, 7c ]
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
Lenny136 checks.
frouger bets [15].
dfscott1 raises [150].
bobuh calls [150].
Lenny136 folds.
frouger folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
dfscott1 is all-In [590]
bobuh folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 1170 chips
Game #2166959752 starts.

#Game No : 2166959752
***** Hand History for Game 2166959752 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12875472 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, June 06, 22:16:23 EDT 2005
Table Table 11226 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: frouger ( $725 )
Seat 2: bdubs12 ( $800 )
Seat 3: dfscott1 ( $1170 )
Seat 4: bobuh ( $590 )
Seat 5: Lingy ( $800 )
Seat 6: cashintheban ( $790 )
Seat 7: riverxrat ( $785 )
Seat 8: bizzzzyb5 ( $800 )
Seat 9: Lenny136 ( $740 )
Seat 10: skring ( $800 )
Trny:12875472 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 2s Kd ]
Lenny136 folds.
skring calls [15].
frouger folds.
bdubs12 raises [70].
dfscott1 folds.
bobuh folds.
Lingy folds.
cashintheban calls [70].
riverxrat calls [60].
>You have options at Table 12983 Table!.
bizzzzyb5 folds.
skring calls [55].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 8d, 7s ]
riverxrat checks.
skring checks.
bdubs12 bets [85].
cashintheban folds.
riverxrat folds.
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
skring is all-In [730]

Connection Lost due to some reason
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
dfscott1 folds.
bobuh folds.
Lingy folds.
cashintheban folds.
>You have options at Table 12983 Table!.
riverxrat calls [30].
bizzzzyb5 folds.
Lenny136 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ah, Kd, 8c ]
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
frouger bets [50].
riverxrat folds.
frouger does not show cards.
frouger wins 135 chips
Game #2166973823 starts.

#Game No : 2166973823
***** Hand History for Game 2166973823 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12875472 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, June 06, 22:18:37 EDT 2005
Table Table 11226 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: frouger ( $780 )
Seat 2: bdubs12 ( $1755 )
Seat 3: dfscott1 ( $1170 )
Seat 4: bobuh ( $590 )
Seat 5: Lingy ( $800 )
Seat 6: cashintheban ( $720 )
Seat 7: riverxrat ( $685 )
Seat 8: bizzzzyb5 ( $775 )
Seat 9: Lenny136 ( $725 )
Trny:12875472 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Ad Kd ]
bdubs12 folds.
dfscott1 raises [50].
>You have options at Table 11067 Table!.
bobuh calls [50].
Lingy folds.
cashintheban calls [50].
riverxrat folds.
bizzzzyb5 folds.
Lenny136 folds.
frouger calls [35].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, Kh, 7c ]
frouger checks.
dfscott1 bets [175].
bobuh raises [375].
cashintheban folds.
frouger folds.
>You have options at Table 12983 Table!.
dfscott1 is all-In [945]
bobuh is all-In [165]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
bobuh shows [ 7s, 7h ] three of a kind, sevens.
dfscott1 shows [ Ad, Kd ] a pair of kings.
dfscott1 wins 580 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of kings.
bobuh wins 1290 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, sevens.
nh
Game #2166981700 starts.

#Game No : 2166981700
***** Hand History for Game 2166981700 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12875472 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, June 06, 22:19:52 EDT 2005
Table Table 11226 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: frouger ( $730 )
Seat 2: bdubs12 ( $1755 )
Seat 3: dfscott1 ( $580 )
Seat 4: bobuh ( $1290 )
Seat 5: Lingy ( $800 )
Seat 6: cashintheban ( $670 )
Seat 7: riverxrat ( $685 )
Seat 8: bizzzzyb5 ( $775 )
Seat 9: Lenny136 ( $715 )
Trny:12875472 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Ks As ]
bobuh: preesh
>You have options at Table 12983 Table!.
dfscott1 raises [50].
bobuh folds.
Lingy folds.
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
cashintheban raises [150].
riverxrat folds.
bizzzzyb5 folds.
Lenny136 is all-In [715]
frouger folds.
bdubs12 folds.
dfscott1 is all-In [530]
cashintheban is all-In [520]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, 5s, 6h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
cashintheban shows [ Td, Th ] a straight, six to ten.
Lenny136 shows [ Jh, Jd ] a straight, five to nine.
dfscott1 shows [ Ks, As ] a straight, five to nine.
Lenny136 wins 45 chips from side pot #2 with a straight, five to nine.
cashintheban wins 180 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, six to ten.
cashintheban wins 1765 chips from the main pot with a straight, six to ten.
dfscott1 finished in ninth place.
dfscott1 has left the table.
Game #2166986632 starts.

[NYCNative]

All I can say reading this is that if you called on level one, you would have either had an early double or less agony... Seriously though, don't know about the first but you just lost two coin flips. It happens half the time. So you're due to coin flips to come your way. (Yeah, i know it doesn't work that way, but I feel your pain...)

[Big Limpin']

How is this post benificial to anyone who reads it?
How are those ppls replies benificial to you?

For all hands: you had good reason to put your money in the middle. you won some, you lost some.

Are you looking for a shoulder to cry on? Want a cookie?

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
For all hands: you had good reason to put your money in the middle. you won some, you lost some.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, no need to get pissy. My question was fairly straightforward -- I don't see why it's so confusing to you. (I even made it multiple choice to simplify it for you.)

[ QUOTE ]
Are you looking for a shoulder to cry on?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
Want a cookie?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure.

Look, if you're having a bad day, don't take it out on me. I asked whether these were reasonable calls on level 1. Just because you think they're obvious doesn't mean everyone else does.

Oh, and thanks for the reply, AH.

[dfscott]

And by the way, thanks for tilting me, AH.

[1C5]

I can feel the love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif


And my damn Heat just lost. Crap. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[igotBlackJak]

gotta raise more than 4x w/ AK imo... 11, 22, 33, u raise to 6x and are liable to get 3-4 callers in lvl 1...

im suprised you didn't have any AJs or AQs beating you though as those are actually bad beats...

can't complain about 77 beating you when you limp in PF.

word

[Big Limpin']

Listen man. You did ask a strightforward question:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting really tilty lately due to:

a) bad beats,
b) bad luck and,
c) bad play.

Help me figure out which category these hands fit into...


[/ QUOTE ]

My answer:
You put your money in with good reason. You won some you lost some.

If you want me to define that, i mean OPTION B)

OK?

Now i meant the tone that I implied. This is not a good post. This i saying: " i think i played good. I got my money in with some decent hands. I busted"

What the eff do you have a problem with if someone calls is out as such?

[Big Limpin']

Also, if it'll cheer you up, know that i would have got broke one those hands, same as you. Sometimes its just not meant to be. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

I think that he made a couple of mistakes though so maybe if he likes my reasoning then this thread will have been valuable

hand 1: raise more, 60 does nothing. You usually have the best hand so you might as well get more chips in

I think that the last hand is a fairly easy fold. You've been reraised, then a 3rd guy pushed the reraiser all in. I can't see how you can ever be ahead in this situation.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that he made a couple of mistakes though so maybe if he likes my reasoning then this thread will have been valuable

hand 1: raise more, 60 does nothing. You usually have the best hand so you might as well get more chips in

I think that the last hand is a fairly easy fold. You've been reraised, then a 3rd guy pushed the reraiser all in. I can't see how you can ever be ahead in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the feedback. I felt like the last hand was pretty much a tilt reaction, but I wasn't sure how valid the play was.

As you might've guessed, I've been losing a lot lately so I'm looking for any leaks, even to the point of questioning fairly basic elements of play.

[elcheapo]

I lose my stack with all 3 flops but I raise to 4bb plus 1BB per limper maybe more. I'd call you with any pair for 50 chips but at 10% of my stack (80+) and my implied odds drop

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I lose my stack with all 3 flops but I raise to 4bb plus 1BB per limper maybe more. I'd call you with any pair for 50 chips but at 10% of my stack (80+) and my implied odds drop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of my key questions. With AK, do I want pairs to fold or call? It seems silly to play it on level 1 to try and steal the blinds.

[Slim Pickens]

1st hand you're either way ahead of a worse ace, drawing nearly dead behind a set, or not getting a winner paid off. I din't like the all-in. The 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif helped no one and didn't put much of a draw on the board. Bet enough so the flush draw makes a mistake to call, but not any more than that. I guess I have no problem with throwing it all at a top pair of aces early on with that board but you have to play it like you want to get called.

3rd hand: fine.
4th hand: I might fold to a raise and a reraise but I'd probably be too pissed from the last hand not to call.

Slim

PS: Didn't you finish ninth?

[lorinda]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Kh As ]
bizzzzyb5 folds.
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
Lenny136 calls [15].
skring folds.
frouger raises [30].
bdubs12 folds.
>You have options at Table 11037 Table!.
dfscott1 raises [60].


[/ QUOTE ]

Make a decision! Limp or raise, this is a just a limp that gives the guy the option to raise again.

Are you playing too many tables and no longer thinking about how to play your cards?

Lori

[elcheapo]

I'd rather steal blinds then play one pair hands against 4-5 players. You don't want pairs in there against you unless you've made there play -EV or near it. Honestly I'd push AK if there was over 100 chips in the pot before it got to me (w/ 3 or more players) even level 1.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
Look, no need to get pissy. My question was fairly straightforward -- I don't see why it's so confusing to you. (I even made it multiple choice to simplify it for you.)


[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[microbet]

Yep, when someone has shown strength and then someone else raises them all in, at a fairly full table, when all parties involved have sufficient chips, AKs is a hand to fold. If the player who pushed had been further out of position it would have been an even more clear fold.

Now, it's not terrible or anything. AKs is definitely a solid hand. If I'm the one who pushed, and I had JJ or maybe TT, and maybe an Ace hit, I wouldn't give it a second thought. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, when someone has shown strength and then someone else raises them all in, at a fairly full table, when all parties involved have sufficient chips, AKs is a hand to fold. If the player who pushed had been further out of position it would have been an even more clear fold.

Now, it's not terrible or anything. AKs is definitely a solid hand. If I'm the one who pushed, and I had JJ or maybe TT, and maybe an Ace hit, I wouldn't give it a second thought. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point - thx

[adanthar]

#1: what lorinda said, #3: bad luck*, #4: easy fold

*when that guy raises half his stack, I'm like 'oh goddammit' and then call anyway. That may actually be a leak

[dfscott]

Now that I've cooled down a bit, let's try this again, constructively.

[ QUOTE ]
This i saying: " i think i played good. I got my money in with some decent hands. I busted"

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had said this, I would agree that it was a bad post. However, this was not, "every time I raise with AK pre-flop I lose! Should I limp and try and see a flop?" I felt like these were valid situations to question my line. Maybe I should've been more specific in what I was asking, but I hate to box people in:

Hand 1) Am I nuts to go all-in after my raise is smooth called on the flop on a fairly raggedy board? (I really don't think I had a choice, but maybe a check/call line on the turn?)

Hand 3) Am I nuts to re-raise all-in with TPTK when I raise pre-flop, bet out and get raised? (My thoughts were that a set would smooth call and this was a str8 draw or weaker kicker).

Hand 4) Is calling a re-raise, followed by an all-in dumb? (Yes, I think it was, but I needed chips badly.)

Probably the worst thing I did was posting the entire history and not hiding this results, therefore making it look like a bad beat post. I got lazy because I was in shock -- sorry about that.

[ QUOTE ]
What the eff do you have a problem with if someone calls is out as such?

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[Big Limpin']

hey man, im real sorry but im super pressed for time right now to respond to that, i have to leave pad in like 5 mins and still have to shower, but i promise ill hit it tomorrow morning...

What i can say now is that , dude, im somewhat sorry about what i sid, insofar as i got allup on your case about an iffy post, and at the time i meant it, but in regards to your followup posts , i realise that it wasnt what i thought "i play guuuuud...i get fukt", but instead it was honest question about "this is my line, was there a better one"

So, here it is : sorry bud, i overreacted.

I do like your style, and you posta are well above average.



Soooooo....like i say, i dont have the time to go over the HH properly now, but in reperations for being an ass previously, i promise i dedicete 5 minutes of my time to give thoughtful opinions/reccomedations tomoorow


Also, what you said before(paraphrase):

[ QUOTE ]
Youre in a pissy mood . dont take it out on me

[/ QUOTE ]

Was ironically correct. I ran up a 11 BI profit today, but im pretty sure i got dumped by my girl today, and i reponded to your post pretty soon after finding that out, so yeah i mosdef was in a pissy mood.

Heh, cheer, GL, expect serious HH response tomorrow.

[dfscott]

It's all good -- I overreacted as well. Guess I was stinging a little more than I realized.

Sux about your girl, but hey, chin up -- more time for poker, right? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Edit: sorry, that last bit may have came off a little flip. Seriously, I know how relationship crap can sux...

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 4) Is calling a re-raise, followed by an all-in dumb? (Yes, I think it was, but I needed chips badly.)


[/ QUOTE ]
Just wanted to chime in that needing chips can't justify making a call when you are either a coinflip or crushed and in for less than 1/10 of your stack.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1) Am I nuts to go all-in after my raise is smooth called on the flop on a fairly raggedy board? (I really don't think I had a choice, but maybe a check/call line on the turn?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone correct me if I'm way off base (I've been having an affair with the 6-max NL tables) but isn't all-in about the worse possible play? Either you've just given away all your chips or you've failed to extract anything out of a winner. It looks like a panic/tilt move.

Slim

[Scuba Chuck]

I'm too lazy to read all the posts. Here are my thoughts.

It's extremely important that when you play AK, you do one of two things. First, if you don't raise enough preflop (like you did), you need to know that you have to let it go if you get too much action. Next, my advice is to raise more preflop so that you can help narrow down the types of hands that will call your preflop raise. IMO, I'd rather win the t25 in level one than lose my whole stack.

Further more, last AK. Come on. Have patience. Let the hand come to you. This isn't a fold AA preflop hand. AK is still a drawing hand. I can't tell you how often people make the mistake of not allowing the other guys battle it out, while you bide ur time. Your objective is not to knock everyone out. Your objective is to place ITM and hopefully win. The only time I care about knocking people out is HU.

Good luck at the tables.
Scuba

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1) Am I nuts to go all-in after my raise is smooth called on the flop on a fairly raggedy board? (I really don't think I had a choice, but maybe a check/call line on the turn?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone correct me if I'm way off base (I've been having an affair with the 6-max NL tables) but isn't all-in about the worse possible play? Either you've just given away all your chips or you've failed to extract anything out of a winner. It looks like a panic/tilt move.

Slim

[/ QUOTE ]
it is very likely that the villain has Ax and will call

[Barrett's Last Privateer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting really tilty lately due to:

a) bad beats,
b) bad luck and,
c) bad play.

Help me figure out which category these hands fit into...

[/ QUOTE ]

DF,

In my mind it's very clear. Your observation skills are waning.

You actually came ninth. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[hummusx]

1) Your raise to 60 is terrible. I don't even think this is from one of your hand histories - you just have stolen it from someone else. You should have raised to 90 at a minimum. That said, it worked out great because you won more than you would have otherwise. As someone else said, on the turn you are either way ahead or way behind. If the latter, you are getting called if you push. If the former, you might get called, but they might fold. I'd bet less and try to get all their chips.

2) Ok. I'm not a huge fan of raising massive amounts PF in the early levels, but I might bet a little more than you did especially considering how many callers there were on the first hand. I think that 60 seems like a lot more than 50 than it actually is, if that makes sense. 77 probably still calls and you still lose your stack.

3) This is probably one where I have trouble too, but doesn't the SNG guide say that pushing AK is fine but don't be calling all-in with it? That's always kind of stuck in my head...

[curtains]

I hate the small reraise in hand 1. I am going to simply call there. Why give a hand like QQ/JJ the chance to blow you out of the pot with a big raise, while at the same time giving them zero chance to fold. I just hate playing that way in almost every situation.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
How is this post benificial to anyone who reads it?
How are those ppls replies benificial to you?

For all hands: you had good reason to put your money in the middle. you won some, you lost some.

Are you looking for a shoulder to cry on? Want a cookie?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm maybe he posted the hands because he wanted advice? It's not really rocket science.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1) Am I nuts to go all-in after my raise is smooth called on the flop on a fairly raggedy board? (I really don't think I had a choice, but maybe a check/call line on the turn?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone correct me if I'm way off base (I've been having an affair with the 6-max NL tables) but isn't all-in about the worse possible play? Either you've just given away all your chips or you've failed to extract anything out of a winner. It looks like a panic/tilt move.

Slim

[/ QUOTE ]
it is very likely that the villain has Ax and will call

[/ QUOTE ]

Gosh no, no one at the $33 sit and go's would call an allin with just top pair weak kicker. They would all be super tight rocks and fold due to the obvious show of strength.

I would move allin as well, the 9 was an slightly unpleasant card and any bet I make is going to pot commit me anyway. It's possible I would bet less than allin only with the purpose of extracting some chips, depending on how I felt about the strength of my opponent's hand, but by no means do I think allin is a "PANIC/TILT" move, whatever that is anyway.

[curtains]

btw I may be one of the few people on this forum who think so, but I really don't like making large open raises with a hand like AK. I mean I really really don't like open raising to 70-80 or whatever when the blinds are 10-15. I'd rather do so with a hand like QQ, but even so I think it's best to just raise to 40-50 (I usually raise to exactly 45) with almost all opening hands in round 1 in every buyin of sit and go.

This is of course my personal preference and obviously not the clear correct way to play. However it makes your decisions postflop a lot easier, especially with a hand like AK. You can make a continuation bet against one opponent without risking too big a % of your stack, (Have fun raising to 75, getting one caller and having to make a 100-125 chip bluff bet as opposed to a 65-75 chip bet) AND if you get more than one opponent and miss the flop, you can get away cheaply. Also when you flop top pair, it's less likely that someone has you beaten as opposed to having an overpair with AA, so I don't feel that it's as important to protect your hand preflop.

I also like to play this way with QQ+JJ, because I feel I am generally good at figuring out whether my hand is good, and the deeper stacks give me more betting leverage to find out where I'm at. If I make a huge open raise, I basically lose the chance to make smaller information type bets on the flop.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]

btw I may be one of the few people on this forum who think so, but I really don't like making large open raises with a hand like AK. I mean I really really don't like open raising to 70-80 or whatever when the blinds are 10-15. I'd rather do so with a hand like QQ, but even so I think it's best to just raise to 40-50 (I usually raise to exactly 45) with almost all opening hands in round 1 in every buyin of sit and go.

This is of course my personal preference and obviously not the clear correct way to play. However it makes your decisions postflop a lot easier, especially with a hand like AK. You can make a continuation bet against one opponent without risking too big a % of your stack, (Have fun raising to 75, getting one caller and having to make a 100-125 chip bluff bet as opposed to a 65-75 chip bet) AND if you get more than one opponent and miss the flop, you can get away cheaply. Also when you flop top pair, it's less likely that someone has you beaten as opposed to having an overpair with AA, so I don't feel that it's as important to protect your hand preflop.

I also like to play this way with QQ+JJ, because I feel I am generally good at figuring out whether my hand is good, and the deeper stacks give me more betting leverage to find out where I'm at. If I make a huge open raise, I basically lose the chance to make smaller information type bets on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really glad to hear this because after reading this thread I was starting to doubt some of my basic strategy. After leaking tons of chips with the sequence of: AK, big raise, big continuation bet on missed flop, check/fold turn, I'd really backed off of it a lot pre-flop. Now instead of hitting level 4 with 650 chips, I'm hitting it with 775. With AK, I'm not looking to score big and double up -- I'm looking to preserve/build my stack for the later levels.

IMO, the small pre-flop raise lets you do two things when you miss. First, you can see the flop relatively cheaply. This means that you can afford a continuation bet which often takes it down right there. If re-raised, the pot is small enough that you can easily let the hand go if re-raised. If called, you get another shot at hitting your TP on the turn, and if you have position, you can often see the river as well. This may sound weak, since you won't get people pot committed when they hit their weak ace on the flop, but I think it's a viable trade-off in the early levels.

With QQ or JJ, I don't really care about seeing all five cards. I'm looking to drive out the junk with a decent sized pre-flop raise (4BB or t100, whichever is more). I might raise more in LP with tons of limpers. Once the flop comes down, I'm looking to either go to the felt or check/fold. I don't have much chance to improve, so I want the drawers to pay.

[hummusx]

I don't think I agree with this - I think you are giving up a lot of value when you have a great hand. If you are trying to get by cheap with AK you're going to end up with too many people in the hand. If you raise it to 45 and get 4 callers, the pot is now 225. What kind of continuation bet can you do for cheap? If you raise it to 70 and get 2 callers, the pot is now 210. Plus, you've got a better chance that someone did not hit their 2 pair when the flop came K76.

Like I said before, I'm not real big on raising AK more than a normalish raise, but I think your line of thinking is a little off. AK isn't going to make a big hand most of the time - you don't really want to 'see the flop cheaply' because that's going to tend to let other people 'see the flop cheaply' as well.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I agree with this - I think you are giving up a lot of value when you have a great hand. If you are trying to get by cheap with AK you're going to end up with too many people in the hand. If you raise it to 45 and get 4 callers, the pot is now 225. What kind of continuation bet can you do for cheap? If you raise it to 70 and get 2 callers, the pot is now 210. Plus, you've got a better chance that someone did not hit their 2 pair when the flop came K76.

Like I said before, I'm not real big on raising AK more than a normalish raise, but I think your line of thinking is a little off. AK isn't going to make a big hand most of the time - you don't really want to 'see the flop cheaply' because that's going to tend to let other people 'see the flop cheaply' as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all everyone here is insane, you simply don't expect 4 callers when you raise to 45 preflop with AKo in the $33s. I've played enough of them to know, most of the time you will get one or maybe two callers, and will have a pot size that is very managable.

Also when you get a ton of callers you don't use a continuation bet. I basically do a continuation bet a large majority of the time against one opponent, and less so against 2. Against two opponents the board has to be right, or I just have to have some kind of other feeling to do it. Most of the time I will just check and fold to 2 callers, although it depends on the flop texture/position and so on.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]


IMO, the small pre-flop raise lets you do two things when you miss. First, you can see the flop relatively cheaply. This means that you can afford a continuation bet which often takes it down right there. If re-raised, the pot is small enough that you can easily let the hand go if re-raised. If called, you get another shot at hitting your TP on the turn, and if you have position, you can often see the river as well. This may sound weak, since you won't get people pot committed when they hit their weak ace on the flop, but I think it's a viable trade-off in the early levels.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you'll do just fine against a $33 player if they flop top pair along with you and you have them outkicked, whether or not you raised to 45 or 75 preflop. Also please for the love of God, don't open raise to 100 with QQ+JJ if the blinds are 10-15.

[dfscott]

Yeah, sorry -- that last paragraph was convoluted -- I don't know where I was going there. I'm generally open raising JJ for 3BB most times (although maybe 4 on level 1) and limping behind 2 or more limpers. I'll be a bit more aggressive with QQ, raising to t60 on level 1 and usually around t100 on level 2, and maybe as much as t100 on level 1 and t150 on level two with 2 or more limpers ahead.

[1C5]

Ok curtains, you raise to 45 if early in the pot with AK, I do the same.
What about you are in late position with AK and you have 3 or 4 limpers at level 1. AK plays better vs 1 opponent than 4 so how much do you raise here? Raising to 45 won't do anything to drive anyone out of the pot.

[adanthar]

I've actually made my standard raise size 60 in level 1 because of this problem. No big deal if I get more callers, the point is to outplay them postflop anyway.

Same thing with AK in LP; at that point, you have two options - raise to 60 and just build a pot you have the best hand in right now, or do something weird like raise to 150 or push. The real problem is that the last thing you want with AK is exactly 1 caller, because you will miss too often (2 callers gives you odds to hit). Therefore, if your raise size is too big, what will happen is you'll get one donkey calling with 77 and he'll have the best hand on the flop most of the time. That's bad, and in this situation, you should try to just build the pot.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok curtains, you raise to 45 if early in the pot with AK, I do the same.
What about you are in late position with AK and you have 3 or 4 limpers at level 1. AK plays better vs 1 opponent than 4 so how much do you raise here? Raising to 45 won't do anything to drive anyone out of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I adjust my raise amount based on number of limpers. I'd normally make it like 115 or something with 3-4 limpers.

[1C5]

Ok, thanks for the reply.

[1C5]

And another option to use also. Thanks also.

Funny that both very good players have different ways of playing the same hand.

Not saying one is better, just different.

[curtains]

btw depending on my mood, I sometimes just call with AK against a ton of limpers. Probably it's not theoretically best, I just feel comfortable doing it sometimes.

[Slim Pickens]

What did I mean by panic/tilt play?

I've found a large fraction of my misplays involve hands like dfscott's first one here where I'm either way ahead or way behind. I don't know which one, so I panic and go all-in. My intuition is that another ace with a weaker kicker won't call an all-in, but maybe I'm giving my opponents too much credit, or maybe it's a leak in my game that I would never be getting myself into the position opposite dfscott in that hand with less than AK in the early rounds. In any case, it doesn't seem as though there is any better hand that will fold to his all-in, and worse hands will often fold, and therefore it is too large of a bet.

Slim, who is a super-tight rock and would fold to an obvious show of strength

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I've actually made my standard raise size 60 in level 1 because of this problem. No big deal if I get more callers, the point is to outplay them postflop anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

Adanthar and Curtains, let's talk more about this statement.

In general, I agree with this statement. At the same time I'm hesitant to follow it. I'd like to talk more about postflop with an A or a K hitting the flop, with one, two or three callers.

The real question I have is, how do you "sniff" out the set? I've lost many a stack to people hitting their set. Hell, I've lost my entire stack on a $55, when I raised to t125 on level 2 with KK, when the SB called me with 22. But back to AK. I've always been under the impression that SitNGos are pedal to the metal poker. Am I just to accept the beats I get from people hitting their set, or what's the best line to figure it out?

Let's make an example:
Level 1, first hand. Hero is UTG with AKo. Hero raises to t60.
MP calls
Button calls
BB calls

Flop is K95r

BB checks to you. What's your strategy for the hand at this point? Also, let's consider this a $33. So starting stack is t800.

Thanks. Scuba

[curtains]

No one ever has a set at $33 and under in a headsup pot when I have top pair top kicker on a drawless or mildy coordinated board. At least that's my strategy.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

No one ever has a set at $33 and under in a headsup pot when I have top pair top kicker on a drawless or mildy coordinated board. At least that's my strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meaning ur going broke with this hand here?

In the meantime, could you provide a little more as to my original question. What is your thought/strategy/betting from here?

[curtains]

Well usually Im winning a small/medium sized pot or doubling up, but yes sometimes I will go broke.

btw I have been awake like 20 hours straight and am exhausted. Was too exhausted to pay attention to exact details fo your hand, namely that there are 3 oppnents and not one! Sometimes I will get all my money in, but there are things that could make me fold....but they are rare indeed!

[curtains]

btw scuba, in that spot Id bet like 150...and call any single raise for all my chips. I also don't raise to 60 preflop but whatever, every now and then I do for variety.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

btw scuba, in that spot Id bet like 150...and call any single raise for all my chips. I also don't raise to 60 preflop but whatever, every now and then I do for variety.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, let's move forward. Two scenarios to consider.

1) Let's assume BB calls your bet. Turn is a ten, let's say it makes a 2 flush on the board. BB checks ...you?

2) Let's assume Button calls your bet. Turn is a ten, same 2 flush on the board. Your next move?

On both of these, the pot is ~t550.

Flop was K95r

[curtains]

Bascially pot committed at this point. Would probably move allin, or make a pot committing bet.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

Bascially pot committed at this point. Would probably move allin, or make a pot committing bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF this is the case, why do you bet less than the pot on the flop?

[curtains]

To get weaker hands to call/raise me. I have no problem whatsoever with betting the whole pot on this board either against so many opponents.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

To get weaker hands to call/raise me. I have no problem whatsoever with betting the whole pot on this board either against so many opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

All right, so let me sum up. With AK, if you hit TPTK on the flop, there's no way around going broke for this hand if you're HU (will start another post with multiple callers). On the flop, if ur first to act, you're betting ~60-65% of the pot. Your intent here is to get weaker hands to call. If it's raised you call. If it's just called, you're putting in the rest of your chips on the turn. There is no way to get away from a set beating you.

Is that a correct summary?

[beggars]

Overall, I'm pushing a little more with AK 1st level. Probably 75 to 90.

1st hand - Played well though I don't think you needed to push all-in to price him out of the flush. 300 would have done. Still fine though.

2nd hand - tough to make a raise like that when you didn't bet enough preflop to have any information. Plenty of hands and draws could beat you with that flop. I'm guessing you hurried that decision.

3rd hand - what's a guy gonna do? You had a great situation and it just didn't hit.

Can't really comment on your overall play based on 3 hands but it's certainly healthy to look in the mirror as opposed to blaming bad beats/cards. That is the only way to get better.

[curtains]

I dunno, poker is rarely that simple where I can just summarize exactly what to do against 3 opponents in one paragraph. I mean a K95 board is a lot different than AQT, KT9 or A72 or whatever.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

No one ever has a set at $33 and under in a headsup pot when I have top pair top kicker on a drawless or mildy coordinated board. At least that's my strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meaning ur going broke with this hand here?

In the meantime, could you provide a little more as to my original question. What is your thought/strategy/betting from here?

[/ QUOTE ]
by starting the tournament with a stack of only 50BB I find it almost impossible to drop AK HU once I hit TP. By the time that I'm suspicious that I may be beat I'm usually pot commited. I'm usually devoid of reads this early and there are too many donkeys out there that will checkraise all in with their TP weaker kicker fot me to justify laying down my AK.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]

I dunno, poker is rarely that simple where I can just summarize exactly what to do against 3 opponents in one paragraph. I mean a K95 board is a lot different than AQT, KT9 or A72 or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

With vague answers like that it's going to be really hard for Scuba to complete his dossier on you.

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