KQs versus a fish, a tag and a 2+2er

[mr pink]

mp2 is fishy like 60/5/.6 fishy
CO has taggish stats but is relatively unknown - 21/11/2.5

sb is a 2+2er with the party handle "twoplustwo4" - show yourself - i'm curious as to what you dumped on the river.


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, 2+2er calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
2+2er checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">2+2er raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, 2+2er calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
2+2er checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, 2+2er calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
2+2er checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, 2+2er folds.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

i think i effed this one up on the flop, but it worked out to my advantage in the end.

- comments on all streets appreciated.

[TheDelChop]

This might be bordering on a really nice play.

I am not sure if you got the CO to lay down a better hand. If I was in the cutoff and I bet my AK and it was check-raised then 3 bet b4 it got to me I would be very uncomfortable, but then again he could be laying down a hand like QQ or JJ that you would want calling.

The SB checkraise screams a weak K or maybe some kind of strong draw, maybe QJs.

Either way I don't think its that bad. If the CO called, I would have to think that he can beat me but would bet the turn because of my new draw.

I would check the river if he continued to call and I missed, now pretty sure he's gonna show AK or AA, but I think most of the time you can isolate two people who you are ahead of. Nice Play!

[Shillx]

sb is a 2+2er with the party handle "twoplustwo4"

Wow this is interesting. This is an odd card to play but oh well.

The way this hand went down, the only hand that you can have the 2+2er on is AK. No other hand makes sense after he calls the flop 3-bet and check/calls the turn. I would check the river.

Brad

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
again he could be laying down a hand like QQ or JJ that you would want calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is more likely than him folding AK here... but still i see what you're saying. in my experience, the check/3-bet is usually a stronger hand than tpgk... i'd be thinking a set.

[ QUOTE ]
The SB checkraise screams a weak K or maybe some kind of strong draw, maybe QJs.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is what i was thinking too.

i'm still not sure what to do about the flop. betting into the CO and hoping for a raise would have been the standard hand protection play, but i don't know if he'd try and push the envelope there with a hand i was ahead of (QQ/JJ) since he was facing a pf raise and 4 opponents.

i really dunno.

[thirddan]

the 2+2ers play is pretty odd to me, the only hands i can think of that he might call 3with preflop are AK and JJ, but i think he should be able to get away from JJ on the flop and he should showdown if he has AK, A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif is the only possibility that also makes sense to me, although i wouldn't like the preflop call...

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
sb is a 2+2er with the party handle "twoplustwo4"

Wow this is interesting. This is an odd card to play but oh well.


[/ QUOTE ]

odd handle for a 2+2er, or odd that i posted it?

[ QUOTE ]
The way this hand went down, the only hand that you can have the 2+2er on is AK. No other hand makes sense after he calls the flop 3-bet and check/calls the turn. I would check the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

you don't think he plays that way with a weak King?

[TheDelChop]

[ QUOTE ]
The way this hand went down, the only hand that you can have the 2+2er on is AK

[/ QUOTE ]



No way, he could easily have two spades, QJ, and could easily be holding QJ of spades. If I held QJ of spades I would try to get as many bets into this flop as possible.

Since he doesn't cap the flop I put him on some sort of spade draw or maybe QJ.

That being said I woudl still value bet the river because the fishy player will call you with many worse hands.

[thirddan]

"you don't think he plays that way with a weak King? "

what king is a 2+2 calling 3 cold with here that is not AK? and if it is AK he should show it down...

[DMBFan23]

really? I would think 2+2er has something like AsQs, I think AK probably caps the flop especially if he has the As.

EDIT: although why not bet-3bet with AQs on the flop? I guess two plus two-er could have KQs of his own, but then he really shouldnt have seen the flop.

regardless, I'm not sure a (good) 2+2er check calls on the turn without just a flush draw or some AK FPS, especially against TAGs who will take free cards with possible draws of their own and will call with worse Ks.

if TAG checkraises the turn (which would be PIMP with a set IMO, but maybe I'm being results oriented) then we are in a difficult spot, but when he calls the turn I think we have an easy value bet with these other players in the pot on the river.

EDIT: I really think he should also cap preflop with AK because he is against a player (OP) who can and will fold for two more bets.

EDIT again: easier cap preflop because MP2 is likely dead money against AK

[Shillx]

What weak king is coolcalling 3-bets preflop? A 2p2er isn't going to play KQs in this spot imo. He certainly doesn't have KT or Kx here.

Thirddan brought up another possible hand (AQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif). This makes sense when you look at the entire hand, but there is only one way that he can have this compared to 8 ways that he could have AK.

Brad

Pink: I find it odd that a 2+2er would have the handle "twoplustwo4", not that you posted this hand.

[thirddan]

if the sb is a 2+2er then he does not have QJs, and if he does he really shouldn't...

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
"you don't think he plays that way with a weak King? "

what king is a 2+2 calling 3 cold with here that is not AK? and if it is AK he should show it down...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, edit that... i'm a retard.

[mr pink]

shouldnt A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif be leading this flop?

[Piiop]

He may have JJ. He might put you on something like AsQs or AsJs trying to use your monster draw to force out a pair and buy outs, but then when you bet the river blank, he knows you must have a K or TT.

I'm not saying that's how I would've played it, but I could see some reasoning there, and I can't think of many other hands he should've played that way.

[thirddan]

not necessarily, while leading is quite reasonable and probably what i would do with AsQs here, going for a c/r on this board is quite likely to end up with a capped flop, which is fine with a monster draw...this board is very likely to have hit two PFR's and there is likely to be a lot of action no matter what AsQs does...

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
not necessarily, while leading is quite reasonable and probably what i would do with AsQs here, going for a c/r on this board is quite likely to end up with a capped flop, which is fine with a monster draw...this board is very likely to have hit two PFR's and there is likely to be a lot of action no matter what AsQs does...

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough.

quick question though, are you checking or betting the flop into the pf raiser?

[DMBFan23]

yeah see my 3rd edit, wow this is a hard hand to read for the two plus two-er.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
wow this is a hard hand to read for the two plus two-er.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd have bet/3-bet the nutflush draw/gutshot here too.

edit: yeah, he must have been like " wTf?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif "

[thirddan]

with AsQs - i would probably bet/3bet, but i also think that c/r/cap is reasonable if you think it will happen, this depends on the PFR's aggression...

with KQo (your hand) - i would probably puss out and fold when its two back to me...this might be slightly weak but its probably what i would do in the moment...

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
with KQo (your hand) - i would probably puss out and fold when its two back to me...this might be slightly weak but its probably what i would do in the moment...

[/ QUOTE ]

i felt the pot was way too big to fold (converter screwed up the pot size - it should be 16sb at the start) - with the bd flush and straight draws and my king and queen outs... splashing around is better than folding once the pot is that big imo.

[sthief09]

if MP2 wasn't SO bad I'd say there's probably not much value in betting the river. also I think he probably has A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif and didn't cap the flop for whatever reason. I think that makes more sense than a weird QQ or JJ check raise

[thirddan]

good point about the pot size, you are getting about 19-2 when it gets to you on the flop so you should probably stick around although just about all of your outs are somewhat tainted due to domination or redraws...

now whether to coldcall or 3bet?
3betting gives you the possible advantage of keeping the lead as well as possibly knocking out the CO if he has a AK or KQ...but it also opens you up to a cap and you are almost certainly beat...
coldcalling allows you to invest less and watch the action that follows you with could end up 3bet or capped which sucks for your hand...

pleh, i don't know...

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
pleh, i don't know...

[/ QUOTE ]

neither do i.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
if MP2 wasn't SO bad I'd say there's probably not much value in betting the river. also I think he probably has A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif and didn't cap the flop for whatever reason. I think that makes more sense than a weird QQ or JJ check raise

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree; and i'm fairly new to the forums, but a party handle 2plus24 or whatever seems to be screaming look at me i'm a really good player, i've even read a book. i thank god i'm not that kind of guy.