KJo > River (2/4)

[beset7]

MP1 is somewhat LAG and based off the last 100 hands or so is raising for a free card on a draw heavy flop with no pfr a signifigant percentage of the time, hence the 3-bet.

Comments on all streets appreciated but I think check-call the river was in order. It could induce a bluff if he missed and save a bet if I'm toast. Standard? Just started focusing on my limit hold em game.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (7 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

[meep_42]

I'm check-calling, but i'm a river wuss.

-d

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm check-calling, but i'm a river wuss.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I was missing bets on the river so I started value betting more and now I'm trying to find spots to check/call with as I think I may have swung too far in the other direction

[hobbsmann]

I think you have to check call this river. If your read on villian was that he raised the flop on a draw then I think you need to go with that considering both draws (str8 and flush) got there on the river.

[vipchump]

I fold this preflop in UTG
I like your flop and turn play.
Not sure about river... bet/fold&gt;check/call?

[Sarge85]

If you can't fold to a raise on the river, don't bet.

Flop and turn are fine (bonus points for not giving a free card)

edit: HU on the river, you probably need to pay this off.
Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[jjacky]

pf: the flop call was super marginal, but probably ok in a fishy game.

flop: the 3 bet was close again, but i prefer to call. here is why: since there are 2 more player to act after him that might call one bet but not two, the likelyhood that he is on a draw is decreased. and with calling and betting out on the turn you would punish a free card raise pretty much too (not to 3-bet on the flop against a draw would only cost about 1/3 small bet). if he has a made hand that is stronger than yours, he will probably raise you on the turn if you should just call his raise on the flop, but may very well just call with A, J or an overpair. that means a call on the flop (followed by a bet on the turn) would define you hand much better.

turn: ok

river: i like your play here. in similar situation i see hands like KJ, AT, KT, QT or even 88 and other strange holdings very often. the raise suggests strongly that you are beaten of course, but i think you have to call it anyway (prolly a winning chance of 10 - 20%).

[beset7]

Thanks for the feedback all. Sarge: I like your little aphorism about betting out in spots like this, i'll remember it.

[ QUOTE ]
flop: the 3 bet was close again, but i prefer to call. here is why: since there are 2 more player to act after him that might call one bet but not two, the likelyhood that he is on a draw is decreased. and with calling and betting out on the turn you would punish a free card raise pretty much too (not to 3-bet on the flop against a draw would only cost about 1/3 small bet). if he has a made hand that is stronger than yours, he will probably raise you on the turn if you should just call his raise on the flop, but may very well just call with A, J or an overpair. that means a call on the flop (followed by a bet on the turn) would define you hand much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally like your logic here but I think the one spot where I'm not sure I agree and probably tilts things towards the 3-bet on the flop is that I don't think the presence of a 2 players to act after him decreases the chance that this is a free card play in more then a nominal sense. This guy is a preflop LAG so with position on the blinds in an unraised pot he would have most likely raised any combination of AKQJT suited or not preflop. He almost HAS to be on a draw here but you are right people show down some wierd stuff in this 2/4 game.

[jjacky]

what's his pfr percentage?

if he was on a draw, his flop raise was a very bad play imo. the free card play gains about 0,33 small bets if it succeeds (and costs 0,33 or 0,66 sb if it fails) and every lost caller costs about 0,33 sb. i cant imagine that there is any chance that a free card play is any good here (and it is not even close).
if you think he will make this move anyway the chance that he is on a draw is not decreased of course. but i think most player who are capable of the free card play would agree that this is no good spot for it.

[gvibes]

I dislike the limp preflop. I think it's overused, but with marginal offsuit big cards that don't like a lot of people in the pot, I think it's raise or fold here.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
what's his pfr percentage?

if he was on a draw, his flop raise was a very bad play imo. the free card play gains about 0,33 small bets if it succeeds (and costs 0,33 or 0,66 sb if it fails) and every lost caller costs about 0,33 sb. i cant imagine that there is any chance that a free card play is any good here (and it is not even close).
if you think he will make this move anyway the chance that he is on a draw is not decreased of course. but i think most player who are capable of the free card play would agree that this is no good spot for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

PFR is around 20 over 120 hands or so.

I like your analysis. I'll remember it for when I'm playing against more reasonable opponents.

EDIT: Maybe I Should have also mentioned that this game had just gone from 4 handed to 8 handed rather quickly which may have influenced my willingness to so quickly put mp1 on a drawing hand.

Also, to the people who mentioned a dislike for the pf call I'm not ignoring you I just think it's so close that it's not really worth debating. I don't like raising with KJo out of position because it's hard to play the aggressor with this hand on most flops but I think it has enough equity against the range of possible holdings in small stakes games to warrant limping UTG. PT says over my last 10K I'm turning a small profit with it OOP so it's probably close and maybe just a style thing.

[jjacky]

thx.

one more point to the fpr percentage: its very high for a full or almost full ring, but if you should have gathered the information 4 handed, it would not be valid in an 8 handed game.

i think that's what the right play depends on.

i wonder what he had... can't wait for the result /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jjacky]

i use all options i similar situations preflop. but i do only raise if the opposition tends to be passive pf since you are in too bad a shape if you get reraised and isolated.

[kslghost]

fold preflop to avoid these situations. You could even be behind AJ. You'll never have any idea playing this way.

[jjacky]

i fold this one pretty often, but i think you give up too much if you fold it against very fishy opponents.

often situations like this occur: i raise preflop, get 2 cold caller, the flop comes face high and misses me, i bet the flop and everyone folds.
these guys often cold call with garbage and then fold if they miss the flop, or go all the way (or at least to the river) if they flop a low pair.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop to avoid these situations. You could even be behind AJ. You'll never have any idea playing this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've yet to meet a player with stats like this guy who would limp AJ in position but point taken. Folding preflop is reasonable as whatever edge you will have with KJo is going to be small.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]

i wonder what he had... can't wait for the result /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

He had 98o and got there on the river. He was making a boneheaded free card play and I charged him the max and felt pretty good about it. I think the river was my main error (and the reason why I posted this hand) but some of you seem to think bet/call is better then check/call.