Extracting the most (KKKK)

[brimstone1]

I'm quite new to NL tournies--on any day, I could've been found on $2/$4 tables across "the internet".

On to my problem: after 255 $11s, I had a 25.49% ROI and 41.18% ITM, but the last batch of 45 SnGs has taken me down about 22 buy-ins, my ROI is down to 15.41%, ITM is down to 38.64%.

After reviewing many of the last 45 tournies, I noticed a pattern. For instance, people will call a 4xBB raise with Q5s from EP at 15/30 blinds, and then proceed to call a pot bet with a queen-high flush draw. I don't think I need to explain the luckbox and LOL party players to you.

So, since my bankroll is at ~40 buy-ins for $20+$2, I have moved up in the chain, but I also know there are some technical knowledges I lack in NL. One of those notions I lack is extracting the maximum.

Here is a hand I thought could be useful in teaching me how to extract the maximum in case of a gigantic monster flopping:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t700)
MP1 (t800)
Hero (t910)
MP3 (t890)
CO (t790)
Button (t770)
SB (t785)
BB (t755)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t105.

Flop: (t292.50) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, Hero...?


I usually go for the "HEY I'M STEALING THIS POT!!!" sort of bet (1/3, 1/2, and fast) rather than checking it around, at least in my obserations I've seen too many monsters checked to the river and then folded to any miniscule bet.

Then again, I'm a limit player, and I've been told to play big hands fast. What the hell do I know?

All comments are dearly appreciated, thanks in advance for your insight.

[Big Limpin']

Let them catch up. Which prolly wont happen, but its the only way you get paid. That, and let them bluff.

You say "play big hands fast", well, part of that is for protection...which you are impervious to.

I check this to the river.

Edit: Pray for a club. Its funny to say it, but in a way, you are on a flush draw.

[utmt40]

I would check and pray for another club to pop off and hope he has two clubs or makes a bluff at this pot.

[mosdef]

you really check this on the turn too? if you check the flop and he checks behind, then you lead the turn it looks exactly like a stab-at-the-pot bluff.

i might check the turn if it was an ace, hoping he had an ace or would bet at the scare card. but if the turn is a rag, you can bet that and get sometimes get called by someone with two overcards (depends on how bad your opponents are).

[microbet]

Not like this happens a lot, so I'm not really sure what I'd do. I think I'm more likely to lead out on the flop with a smallish bet if I'm first to act. In later position I'd check and let them have the free card. If he checks the turn, I'd probably make a smallish bet. He may have a draw at this point and this might be the only chance to get any chips.

[brimstone1]

I guess with two clubs on the board, I could've checked this one.

One problem is, I know that hitting my flush draw isn't the easiest thing, even in the case of a 3rd flush card, he might have a different suit.

I didn't see this hand getting any more profitable, so I actually bet 100 on the flop and took it right there. The guy even asked me: "why did you bet?" which was when I realized I had to make a post about this topic and learn from you guys the right way to do it.

[brimstone1]

Funny though that most of the time people check the turn as well and take the stab on the river.

Think about it, how many times has the whole table checked the whole thing until the river, and then some poor schmuck minbets on the river hoping to take it right there?

People don't like to cash-in on the turn, at least in the SnG sense, it looks more like you actually have a hand, rather than the opposite.

[mosdef]

True, but many people will just call the turn bet as well, so if you don't make that bet then you're going to win less on the river.

I think it's read dependent. If you've got a guy who likes to call, bet the turn. if you've got a tight player, check the turn. if you don't know, i think either way will work. I'm not sure if there's more callers or folders in the general population...

[brimstone1]

Although not mathematically sustainable, I've actually had this situation 4 times in the past two days, and its been bugging me. I think I played them all the same (mistake). I've done this twice with KK, once with AA, and then with some small pair as well.

Even including flopping the nut flush/straight, and a full house--obviously these situations don't arise enough to make a big deal out of it, but I'd really like to know how 2+2ers act on such occasions.

This is more of a NL theory question rather than SnG I guess.

[suited_ace]

Check/Call until the river... and then push. Seems to work very well with the low buy-in players.

Edit: I'd play this differently if it was a higher buy-in.

[brimstone1]

Well, if 98% of online poker players are fish like poker prophecy ads suggest, I guess there are more callers than folders :P

[brimstone1]

Calling their 1/2 pot or pot bet will bring them down to an immediate halt and make them fold to your bet though, won't it? Stop&amp;go, right?

Edit: I guess not necessarily true, it might induce an all-in on some occasions.

The more I think of it, the more I feel as if these situations are a coin-flip rather than anything else.
It seems people might call an all-in just as much as they might fold to a min-bet :\

[suited_ace]

Not really. You're underestimating their stupidity. Your push will get called more often if it's checked down to the river, but even when you call their bet there are still a lot of players that will think you're on a steal.

Against an aggressive player you could also try the minimum bet on the river to induce a bluff, specially if you called a bet on the flop or the turn.

[the shadow]

I've been reading some of strassa's posts lately. FWIW, he suggests leading the flop and check-raising the turn. Check out here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1316321&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) and here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1257755&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

IMHO, Lorinda's advice to river quads is better. You're more likely to get some action from a villian who thinks that his flopped full house is good. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

The Shadow

[brimstone1]

You're probably right about underestimating their stupidity, these last few days of "variance" have made low-level buy-in party players gods in my mind. I've tasted "tilt" after so many hours of intellectual practice, reading, and actually playing the game--it's embarassing.

I still struggle to find an explanation, which is exactly what a poker player should be avoiding: looking at short-term events as permanent. It's just hard to do as you see your "tiny" (compared to people here) bankroll crumble away at the hands of people playing only for fun, while you study and work on your game all the time.

I'm sure everyone here knows which feeling I'm talking about.

[rybones]

I play the 20s and I have to tell you betting the flop is the way to go; however, I would have bet something like t60. This type of small bet is almost always seen as a weak continuation bet on missed flop (as well it should be seen that way as that's what it usually is at the 20s). My guess is this type of bet will cause the villian to:

A) fold if he is smart -- in which case you wouldn't have made any money anyway.

B) Call as he is on a draw (you're giving him odds to call) and now you are hoping for the flush.

C) reraise as he thinks you are full of crap. If this happens just call and then let him bet the turn. If he doesn't bet small again.

For what it's worth that is my solution.

Ryan

[RobGW]

There some important differences here. In those links there were several opponents making it more likely to get called when you bet. In this hand, hero has only one opponent who has already indicated weakness by checking. If there was ever a case for slowplaying, this is it.

[microbet]

Well, both hands were a bit different. Hero wasn't last to act in either and neither were raised preflop.

I think both factors make me more inclined to check the flop in this case.

[brimstone1]

So on this note, how is 18% ROI for 4-tabling? was this the *ahem*pokergods*ahem* adjusting my ROI to what it should be, or was it simple variance?

I'm not including the option "or do I suck," because you would need more stats and detailed "hand analysis" to determine that.

It just hit me that 18% ROI "might" be normal for continous multi-tabling.