What does it take to win an MTT?

[TexInAtl]

In the last 4 tournaments that I've made it ITM, the hands that have knocked me out, or left me severly crippled are: AA, KK twice, and QQ.
My last bubble finish, I was left severly crippled after I flopped 3 Ks and lost to a flush. This coming after I had held the chip lead in the tournament twice.
My question is this: Am I doing something wrong, or is this pretty par for the course? I'm still looking for my first win, but it's extremely frustrating when the hands that should put you at the final table are the ones taking all of your chips.
Is this a normal pnenomenon?

Thanks

[A_PLUS]

Stop putting chips in on hands that get beat, then you will win. It is really pretty basic

[TexInAtl]

Ok A_PLUS, tell me the hands that don't get beat, and I'll make sure that I'll get my chips in with those hands. (See, I can be sarcastic too).
Seriously though, maybe I should rephrase by question. Is it the sign of a good MTTer to constantly be knocked out with a BB story to tell, rather than donking all your chips off on a bluff?

[David04]

Luck.

[gisb0rne]

#1 factor in any given tourney is luck.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

Yes, this is a normal phenomenon. There is no hand that should do anything so long as your opponent has outs; there are only hands that have a great probability of doing something.

However, if your only stories are bad beats with premium hands getting beat, you might be playing too tight. My theory of online multitable tournaments is that you need to take risks to build a cushion to absorb the bad beats or dry spells that you may encounter in the late stages. You should at least have some stories of getting eliminated after your opponent calls your semibluff and your draw doesn't get there. You should occasionally run into someone with a big hand in the blinds when you try a blind steal and get eliminated thusly.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
but it's extremely frustrating when the hands that should put you at the final table are the ones taking all of your chips

[/ QUOTE ]

Those "hands that should put you at the final table" (the big PPs you are talking about) are relatively easy to play, unless the stacks are rather deep, and even someone who have just started playing poker can't make too many mistakes with them. In most cases you just want to get the money in, especially in mid-late stages, and pray not to get unlucky.

If these are the hands that bother you, I think you still have a lot of work to do on your game. That is, if you wait for those hands because these are the hands that will bring you to final table, you have no advantage over the avarage player, and you might even be behind.

Over time, everybody get the same amount of big pairs, you know. You want to get to the final table much more often than just "everybody".

[Jax_Grinder]

I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Luck only matters insofar as it refers to the simultaneous occurrence of several factors necessary to win a big multi. Some of those factors you can control, and that is where you will get over the hump and into the big $$.

I suspect that you were shortstacked in each of the situations you describe. In short, your stack is not large enough to sustain a significant hit and/or not large enough to cause the mid to large stacks to fold (your opps have no FE). The only way to combat this is to play more aggressively early (esp. on the bubble) so that when you do take that beat with a premium hand, it does not eliminate you. Sometimes this will keep you out of the money, but others it will propel you deeper to where the money actually matters. In short, if you always find yourself all-in against a bigger stack with these hands, then you have to find the change in strategy that reverses the situation.

Overly simplistic, but if you get AA 5 times during a MTT and your money is in every time against a bigger stack, you WILL NOT survive the 5th all-in. I would rather bust out on the bubble with K9s trying to build a stack than squeak ITM and push my last 2000 chips in on AA just to see it get sucked out on.

Also, if you find yourself just ITM a good amount of the time (30% or so?) but never deep, then you are simply playing to conservatively. There are HUNDREDS of quality posts on this board that deal with mid-stage and bubble play (both general strategy and hand specific discussions) that you should investigate and then implement into your game.

OK, maybe that was only worth 1 1/2 cents...

Good Luck.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Mostly useless replies so far


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. As opposed to your reply, that suggests that waiting for premium hands is not the best MTT strategy? Didn't read that one in this thread yet... especially put in so many unnecesary words.

[dmk]

I can't believe you're getting serious replies to this...

Every poorly concealed bad beat story is now going to get a reply of "Welcome to tournament poker" from me. It happens to everyone, no one wants to hear your sad songs. Post a meaningful hand if you actually want advice.

[David100]

I won a $5 rebuy on stars the other day. There were like 1000 players!!

Should i quit my job and become a pro?

[Jax_Grinder]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm. As opposed to your reply, that suggests that waiting for premium hands is not the best MTT strategy? Didn't read that one in this thread yet... especially put in so many unnecesary words.

[/ QUOTE ]

point taken regarding the unnecessary judgmental nature of my opening, so i deleted it.

However, "waiting for premium hands", taken as an unqualified statement (as presented), is NOT the best tournament strategy. If you do not play poker with lesser holdings, then you are guaranteed to leave the tourney well short of the significant money. I leave open the possibility that you have more to say on the strategy of just waiting for premium hands, but in the interest of economy of words, decided not to elaborate.

[z32fanatic]

I find that being ready and willing to take coinflips helps greatly. I thought I would never win one, but I had my first win last night and it felt great. Just be willing to take risks and don't play scared. That leads to success.

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
In the last 4 tournaments that I've made it ITM, the hands that have knocked me out, or left me severly crippled are: AA, KK twice, and QQ.
My last bubble finish, I was left severly crippled after I flopped 3 Ks and lost to a flush. This coming after I had held the chip lead in the tournament twice.
My question is this: Am I doing something wrong, or is this pretty par for the course? I'm still looking for my first win, but it's extremely frustrating when the hands that should put you at the final table are the ones taking all of your chips.
Is this a normal pnenomenon?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Play stratego instead, less variance. Have you studied poker at all man?
~Justin

[TexInAtl]

Thanks to those who gave serious replies.

First of all, in all for situations when I lost we these hands, I wasn't short-stacked. In fact, 3 of the 4 hands, I still had chips left after taking the beats, but just wasn't able to recover. I have read the hundreds of posts referring to bubble, mid, and late stage play, and I apply those techniques with enough success that either I bust out before the bubble, or I make it in the money with a sufficient stack to make a run at the final table. I also agree that it is difficult to mis-play AA, KK, or QQ, and in all 4 cases, either I or my opponent was all-in PF.

What I was actually trying to find out from those that have won and are successful MTTers is whether or not this is typical of them as well. Do you go deep ITM when these hands hold up, and flounder just ITM when these types of hands get cracked.

Thanks

[Jurollo]

Seriously stop you're killing me here. Go buy a pattern mapper on ebay and you wont have anything to worry about.
~Justin

[dmk]

wtf is w/ this forum recently...posts like these just put me on tilt...

are you serious? you're asking if successful mtt'ers go deeper once they double up or bust if they get cracked? you can't figure this one out for yourself?!

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
However, "waiting for premium hands", taken as an unqualified statement (as presented), is NOT the best tournament strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's not the best strategy. It's far from being the best strategy. That's what I said in a post above, only in a different manner. I just commented that you are repeating things that have been already mentioned in previous replies here, right after calling the same replies "useless". That's all.

[Jax_Grinder]

Mea culpa. I only read the 1st four posts, made an assumption about the others, and then went on my merry way. Lesson learned.

[TexInAtl]

I can not believe how people are treated on this forum. The response that I was hoping to get was something along the lines of: "Hey man, it's happened to the best of us. Keep learning. Keep applying the techniques posted here. Keep making the right moves, and when your cards hold up, you'll go deep."

I hope when I have hundreds or even thousands of posts, I can come up with something more constructive to say than: "You've made another idotic post, and gotten stupid responses to your idiotic post."

I'd like to suggest a book to add to your poker library. It's called "How to win friends and influence people". Maybe if you did a search for it on Ebay, you could find it real cheap.

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
I can not believe how people are treated on this forum. The response that I was hoping to get was something along the lines of: "Hey man, it's happened to the best of us. Keep learning. Keep applying the techniques posted here. Keep making the right moves, and when your cards hold up, you'll go deep."

I hope when I have hundreds or even thousands of posts, I can come up with something more constructive to say than: "You've made another idotic post, and gotten stupid responses to your idiotic post."

I'd like to suggest a book to add to your poker library. It's called "How to win friends and influence people". Maybe if you did a search for it on Ebay, you could find it real cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont need more noobs as friends, I am set with those I have, in fact I might be unloading a few of said noobs for a reasonable price. Why do you need us to massage your ego anyway? This is poker after all, stuff happens. P.S. Don't take all the advice you see here as fact either be very careful who's you follow and who's you don't, lots of crap get touted as fact here when it is FAR FAR from it.
~Justin

[TexInAtl]

Well, if you can't point me to some of your posts that have some worth while information in them, I'll be happy to take a look at them, but I'm really wary about taking advice from someone who insults as well as you.

[Jurollo]

Did I say I have had great strat posts? Nope. I am giving you a large lesson here that some people don't find out for a long time, that being don't trust all the strat advice here. Best place to get it is in the archives when posts like your original one didnt clog things up so badly. As far as getting made fun of and such just look at what you are asking, you are LUCKY to have gotten 1 post of actual content with a question like that. People here are weary of bad beat posts (I ALWAYS lose with AA, KK and QQ ITM!!!!) and stupid questions that are posted time and time again like Do you folks win more often after doubling up ITM or when you are crippled ITM? This question is so illogical you should feel foolish to have even posed it. I wish you great success at the tables but don't keep posting utter crap and then blindly defending it when people are telling you it is illogical.
~Justin

[Jax_Grinder]

Might I add that you better have a pretty thick skin and a penchant for accepting your knocks when they come. Only a select few on this board are *above* the fray and rarely, if ever, get insulted in some way for their trouble.

That said, while he may have said his piece in a caustic tone borne of the taint of YEARS (or, one year, i guess) of plowing through posts like this, you would do well to take his points.

[sabre170]

Generally speaking, you must

1. Make one spectacular call
2. Make one spectacular laydown
3. Steal the blinds a few times
4. Win coinflips at least twice, either all-in or against an all-in player.
5. Get away with one daring bluff.
6. Make one major suckout.
7. Have your edges hold up whenever being sucked out on would kill you.

That is really all there is to it.

[Jax_Grinder]

Hmmm. I was searching for sarcasm and found wisdom instead.

[HoldingFolding]

Something I find reassuring is to look at the actual tournament reports that have been posted. You'll see different styles of play have got posters to the final tables. You'll see that along the way they've had bad beats, suckouts and also made some very clever moves. It's encouraging because you'll realise you capable of close to the same. I suggest Justin Bonomo's blog (http://www.zeejustin.com/) for a more straightforward approach (hope that's not offensive Justin) and Punker's posts for something a little offbeat, but nonetheless effective.

[DonButtons]

some good luckbox skills...