My mom cried today

[Gamblor]

Today, in Israel, is Yom Yerushalayim. It's the day Jerusalem was rebuilt.

My mom found this on the internet and showed it to me; she was listening to the Army radio live broadcast of the Paratroop unit that broke through the Jordanian forces and gain sight of the kotel for the first time, in tears.

If you can understand hebrew you absolutely have to hear this Radio broadcast (http://www.isracast.com/kotel.asx).

A transcript (I found this on the same site, but it's missing a bunch of lines, basically instructions and orders from the colonel, some of ronen's comments as well):

Colonel Motta Gur [on loudspeaker]:
All company commanders, we’re sitting right now on the ridge and we’re seeing the Old City. Shortly we’re going to go in to the Old City of Jerusalem, that all generations have dreamed about. We will be the first to enter the Old City. Eitan’s tanks will advance on the left and will enter the Lion’s Gate. The final rendezvous will be on the open square above.

[The open square of the Temple Mount.]

[Sound of applause by the soldiers.]

Yossi Ronen:
We are now walking on one of the main streets of Jerusalem towards the Old City. The head of the force is about to enter the Old City.

[Gunfire.]

Yossi Ronen:
There is still shooting from all directions; we’re advancing towards the entrance of the Old City.

[Sound of gunfire and soldiers’ footsteps.]

[Yelling of commands to soldiers.]

[More soldiers’ footsteps.]

The soldiers are keeping a distance of approximately 5 meters between them. It’s still dangerous to walk around here; there is still sniper shooting here and there.

[Gunfire.]

We’re all told to stop; we’re advancing towards the mountainside; on our left is the Mount of Olives; we’re now in the Old City opposite the Russian church. I’m right now lowering my head; we’re running next to the mountainside. We can see the stone walls. They’re still shooting at us. The Israeli tanks are at the entrance to the Old City, and ahead we go, through the Lion’s Gate. I’m with the first unit to break through into the Old City. There is a Jordanian bus next to me, totally burnt; it is very hot here. We’re about to enter the Old City itself. We’re standing below the Lion’s Gate, the Gate is about to come crashing down, probably because of the previous shelling. Soldiers are taking cover next to the palm trees; I’m also staying close to one of the trees. We’re getting further and further into the City.

[Gunfire.]

Colonel Motta Gur announces on the army wireless:
The Temple Mount is in our hands! I repeat, the Temple Mount is in our hands!

All forces, stop firing! This is the David Operations Room. All forces, stop firing! I repeat, all forces, stop firing! Over.

Commander eight-nine here, is this Motta (Gur) talking? Over.

[Inaudible response on the army wireless by Motta Gur.]

Uzi Narkiss:
Motta, there isn’t anybody like you. You’re next to the Mosque of Omar.

Yossi Ronen:
I’m driving fast through the Lion’s Gate all the way inside the Old City.

Command on the army wireless:
Search the area, destroy all pockets of resistance and make sure to enter every single house, especially the holy places.

[Lt.- Col. Uzi Eilam blows the Shofar. Soldiers are singing ‘Jerusalem of Gold’.]

Uzi Narkiss:
Tell me, where is the Western Wall? How do we get there?

Yossi Ronen:
I’m walking right now down the steps towards the Western Wall. I’m not a religious man, I never have been, but this is the Western Wall and I’m touching the stones of the Western Wall.

Soldiers: [reciting the ‘Shehechianu’ blessing]:
Baruch ata Hashem, elokeinu melech haolam, she-hechianu ve-kiemanu ve-hegianu la-zman ha-zeh.
[Translation: Blessed art Thou Lord God King of the Universe who has sustained us and kept us and has brought us to this day]

Rabbi Shlomo Goren:
Baruch ata Hashem, menachem tsion u-voneh Yerushalayim.
[Translation: Blessed are thou, who comforts Zion and bulids Jerusalem]

Soldiers: Amen!

[Soldiers sing ‘Hatikva’ next to the Western Wall.]

Rabbi Goren:
We’re now going to recite the prayer for the fallen soldiers of this war against all of the enemies of Israel:

[Soldiers weeping]

El male rahamim, shohen ba-meromim. Hamtse menuha nahona al kanfei hashina, be-maalot kedoshim, giborim ve-tehorim, kezohar harakiya meirim u-mazhirim. Ve-nishmot halalei tsava hagana le-yisrael, she-naflu be-maaraha zot, neged oievei yisrael, ve-shnaflu al kedushat Hashem ha-am ve-ha’arets, ve-shichrur Beit Hamikdash, Har Habayit, Hakotel ha-ma’aravi veyerushalayim ir ha-elokim. Be-gan eden tehe menuhatam. Lahen ba’al ha-rahamim, yastirem beseter knafav le-olamim. Ve-yitsror be-tsror ha-hayim et nishmatam adoshem hu nahlatam, ve-yanuhu be-shalom al mishkavam [soldiers weeping loud]ve-ya’amdu le-goralam le-kets ha-yamim ve-nomar amen!

[Translation: Merciful God in heaven, may the heroes and the pure, be under thy Divine wings, among the holy and the pure who shine bright as the sky, and the souls of soldiers of the Israeli army who fell in this war against the enemies of Israel, who fell for their loyalty to God and the land of Israel, who fell for the liberation of the Temple, the Temple Mount, the Western Wall and Jerusalem the city of the Lord. May their place of rest be in paradise. Merciful One, O keep their souls forever alive under Thy protective wings. The Lord being their heritage, may they rest in peace, for they shalt rest and stand up for their allotted portion at the end of the days, and let us say, Amen.]

[Soldiers are weeping. Rabbi Goren sounds the shofar. Sound of gunfire in the background.]

Rabbi Goren:
Le-shana HA-ZOT be-Yerushalayim ha-b’nuya, be-yerushalayim ha-atika!
[Translation: This year in a rebuilt Jerusalem! In the Jerusalem of old!]



One of the most common prayers jews sing at every holiday is: Le'shana HA-BA-A, be-Yerushalayim. Next year in Jerusalem. While everyone outside the country still sings it that way, I can't imagine what it must have been like for those soldiers who got to sing "This year in Jerusalem".

Chills.

[Jakesta]

The Palestinians cried as well, like they do every day. Some day they will stand up as one and refuse to be oppressed anymore.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
The Palestinians cried as well, like they do every day. Some day they will stand up as one and refuse to be oppressed anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead, not long to 1000 posts already.

[ACPlayer]

bad beat.

Pass the hanky.

[DBowling]

where's the cliffnotes guy?

[jcx]

The amazing thing is that as the victors the Israelis allowed their enemies to keep control of the Temple Mount. Should Jerusalem ever fall again to Muslim armies I doubt many Jews would escape with their lives, let alone be allowed to pray at the Western Wall.

[Felix_Nietsche]

It gives me an insight on the emotional aspects of the Israelis on capturing sacred ground.

[iraise50]

I don't think its possible to put the emotions that the Jewish people feel for the city of Jerusalem into words. Islam has the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, but those cities have had thier level of importance for 1400 years or so. Jersualem is not only an older city, but has been out of Jewish hands for many years. It's almost like a piece of the Jewish soul.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"The Palestinians cried as well, like they do every day."
************************************************** ******
Yes, within 24 hours being given their first country they invade a neighboring country. It is sad to see war-like countries get defeated.

The last time I cried like this was when Hitler lost WW2. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Jakesta]

The Palis have never had their own country.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Within 24 hours [after] being given their first country [the Palestinians] invade a neighboring country.


[/ QUOTE ]

Without getting into the perennial argument about whose land that is, I have to point out the gross lapse in logic here: We have two sides, one the Palestinian, which, arguably, lives there before 1948 at the very least, and considers the whole land as its land; and the Jews, who have been away in diaspora, and come back (at least, in significant numbers) during the 20th century. The Jews get their land and the Palestinians lose theirs -- this is how this plays out from, at least, the Palestinians' point of view.

Given the above, what is it exactly that you cannot understand about the Arabs going to war after their land is taken from them?

[ QUOTE ]
(sarcastically:) It is sad to see war-like countries get defeated.

[/ QUOTE ] "War-like countries"?? Oh you mean "belligerent nations", such as the Palestinians. Wow... I didn't know they had been belligerent for so long as to earn them such epithets! Well, then it should be easy for you to provide us with at least one example of Palestinians behaving in any belligerent way in the previous centuries.

Go on, class is waiting.

--Cyrus

[Utah]

Can one infer from this post that the jews hadnt been in the city for generations but decided to take it be force against a government that didnt want them there? If so, what was the rational for such a course of action?

[Felix_Nietsche]

....gave the Palestinians their own state?
If if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....then it is a duck.

[andyfox]

"we’re going to go in to the Old City of Jerusalem, that all generations have dreamed about."

[Utah]

""we’re going to go in to the Old City of Jerusalem, that all generations have dreamed about."

Sounds like a different version of manifest destiny or any other repugnant method used to take land from a group of people. I dont want to make assumptions here because I dont know much about the subject, but comments like those in the original post never sit well with me.

[PITTM]

i read an great article by Eqbal Ahmad yesterday called "Terrorism: Theirs and Ours" in which he goes through the recent history of the middle east and who has been labeled a terrorist when. he tells of two isreali prime ministers during the 1940s who were considered terrorists by most of Europe, while the palestinean governement was completely legitimate. However, when Isreal was created and palestine lost their land, the label switched, the PLO were now considered terrorists while the isrealis had a "natural right" to the land. the widespread support of isreal and condemning of the PLO is just stupid. If your land were given to someone else, would you not fight for it? i know i would. saying that isreal has more of a right to the land and the right to opress palestine is just plain silly. Having a positive emotional experience over the Isrealis opening the door for mass genocide is just sickening.

rj

[Jakesta]

You forgot that Gamblor is both a Canuck and a Zionist freakshow. He probably creamed his pants after reading this.

[Gamblor]

there had been a continuous jewish population - usually a majority - there for millenia, but the muslims had made life intolerable with random massacres, lynchings, and general violent behaviour.

Jerusalem was intended to be internationally monitored but when Jordan annexed it in 1948 they basically ran it (or didn't run it - it became a virtual shanty town). The Jews of the Old City were expelled and their property looted. The only Jews left remained outside the Old City walls.

Jordanian administration of Jerusalem (http://www.ourjerusalem.com/ourjerusalem/story/oj20010117.htm)

The Jordanians literally let the Arabs there get away with murder, so the Israelis went in to capture the city as both a key central defence city and to protect the population there.

Jerusalem 1948-1967 (http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_holysites.php)

Truthfully, Jerusalem, despite its national and religious significance, is nowadays a haven for idiots from both sides. Basically, if you come from Jerusalem, you're a little off mentally.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
So did I imagine the UN resolution in 1948 that gave the Palestinians their own state? Within 24 hours being given their first country they invade a neighboring country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wht are you talking about? A Palestinian state never existed! The UN had the two countries' borders drawn and one of the two, Israel, declared its independence unilaterally, i.e. at the expense of the other. Those opposing the state that landed among them and on what they consdered for centuries to be their land, i.e. the Arabs, sorta did not take too kindly to this and resorted to war.

Which, they promptly lost -- and so the Palestinians also lost their whole land.

In sum, Israel, by right of war, usurped the land it was after. The Arabs lost that war, and then another, and another, and then another. This should have been the end of it (after all those losses in war, Zabotinsky is proven "right") because the Arabs start suing for peace.

But Israel no longer wants peace! It gains more by (hot or cold) war -- which is where we came in.

[iraise50]

They never decided hey lets go take Jerusalem by force. It's apparent you're not well-grounded in the subject as Israel has been attacked by multiple numbers of countries more than once. It has gained land in the majority of the wars, but if you gain soemthing when someone attacks you...can you be upset with the attacked victor?

[iraise50]

[ QUOTE ]
Having a positive emotional experience over the Isrealis opening the door for mass genocide is just sickening.

rj

[/ QUOTE ]

Mass genocide? That is what terrorsits advocate. That is what Jews have dealt with for thousands of years.

Arabs in Israel (Palestinians is a misnomer of sorts) enjoy more rights and freedoms in Israel than they do in Arab nations. The post wasn't advocating war, I don't think. It was about a spiritual and powerful emotional feeling. Let's stick to subject and not get nasty without cause. There's enough of that in the world.

[PITTM]

yeah, the jews are always persecuted and the arabs live happy lives with no persecution...besides having rockets shot at their house by isreali helicoptors frequently, besides that its just as if they WERENT having a mass genocide against them...

rj

[andyfox]

"two isreali prime ministers during the 1940s who were considered terrorists"

Begin was a terrorist and wrote a book (The Revolt) used as a virtual manual by other terorists, including the IRA and the Palestinians themselves. Ben Gurion refused to even talk to him. Shamir was with an even more radical terrorist group.

[andyfox]

Manifest destiny is an apt description.

[Dead]

Begin was not prime minister during the 40s.

[andyfox]

Nor was Shamir. I thought we meant they were terrorists during the 1940s (and eventually became PMs). Only Ben Gurion was prime minister during the 1940s. Ben Gurion considered Begin a terrorist (as did Albert Einstein [who Ben Gurion asked to be President of Israel], who took out an ad in the N.Y. Times denigrating him).

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Manifest destiny is an apt description.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it is, but it leaves something out, and that is the near-relentless persecution and oppression of the Jews by the Russians, Europeans and Arabs, over many centuries. I don't blame the Zionists for having a Manifest Destiny (or Sanctuary) Complex in the midst of a vast sea of barbaric, vicious, mortal enemies. Heck, Zionism seems to me to be a rather mild reaction, all things considered.

In my opinion well over 90% of the fault lies with the Barbarians.

[whiskeytown]

in the meantime, their old leaders will continue to fill kid's heads with bullshit and turn them into suicide bombers...

they should learn to lead by example - blow themselves up and then ask others to do it /images/graemlins/grin.gif

rb

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
...the near-relentless persecution and oppression of the Jews by the Russians, Europeans and Arabs, over many centuries. [The Jews were] in the midst of a vast sea of barbaric enemies.

[/ QUOTE ] There you go again.

The Christian nations of Europe have indeed persecuted viciously and almost relentlessly their Jews. Czarist Russia had its pogroms in the 19th century, yes. But about the Arabs you are simply, historically wrong.

You may cry yourself hoarse or get frantic with pseudo-historical examples, drawn from the web, courtesy of the Zionist websites, but the Arabs were not anti-semites historically and did not commit genocide against the Jews.

Until Herzl and the Zionists demanded Arab land for their own, the Arabs had no beef whatsoever with their fellow semites, the Jews.


[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion well over 90% of the fault lies with the Barbarians.

[/ QUOTE ] You seem to have an opinion on everything.

[MMMMMM]

No, Cyrus. The Arabs did not, as you say, commit genocide against the Jews--but I never claimed they committed genocide. I said they persecuted and oppressed the Jews, which is true. And they forced them to live as second-class citizens, as dhimmi, throughout many parts of the Middle East and over numerous time periods.

The anti-Jewish fixation by Arabs/Muslims DIDN'T all start in the 1940's. The Hamas Charter cites a certain hadith in its 7th chapter. This hadith was written in the 9th century. The hadith says:

"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until the Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them), until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! Oh Abdullah!, there is a Jew behind me, come on and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

So OBVIOUSLY the Arab/Muslim anti-Jewish sentiment goes far back, even to around Muhammad's time. The hadiths are revered collections of sayings and acts of Muhammad and early Muslims and are used for the further understanding of Islam.

[andyfox]

The near relentless prosecution and oppression over the centuries is a myth.

"In my opinion well over 90% of the fault lies with the Barbarians."

The fault with what? For the sake of discussion, let's agree that there was an urgent need for a Jewish homeland due to relentless persecution and oppression. The Zionists went to a land where other people were already living and treated them like dirt. Whose fault was that?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
The near relentless prosecution and oppression over the centuries is a myth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, change it from "near-relentless" to "repeated" or "thematic" or "widespread" and it isn't a myth.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"In my opinion well over 90% of the fault lies with the Barbarians."

[/ QUOTE ]

The fault with what? For the sake of discussion, let's agree that there was an urgent need for a Jewish homeland due to relentless persecution and oppression. The Zionists went to a land where other people were already living and treated them like dirt. Whose fault was that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Andy, that's the other 10% of the fault.

Yes, the Arabs living in pre-Israel there got the short end of the stick. That isn't the central issue though and throughout history much larger groups have gotten the short end quite often and in much worse ways. Sad but too bad. And it's nearly nothing compared to what the Jews went through for many centuries. Also, as Gamblor pointed out, even in pre-Israel they were already having deadly riots against the Jews and doing other vicious things against them.

As I've posted before, if American Negro slavery had continued well into the 20th century, and the attitudes of most Americans continued to support rampant prejudice and slavery against the Negros, I believe the Negros would have been justified in demanding and receiving a sanctuary region or homeland somewhere in the USA--perhaps the size a couple of fairly big states. And for those displaced it would have been too bad--they would just have to take their payoff settlement and resettle elsewhere. And the blame would lie almost entirely on those with the backwards bigoted attitudes who were doing the oppressing.

Many Arabs to this day are highly anti-Semitic and many or most would like to see Israel destroyed and a lot want to see all the Jews killed. Just read the plethora of sermons by important imams quoted VERBATIM on MEMRI for verification of this. These imams are delivering highly racist fascistic messages that resonate deeply with their audiences.

So UNTIL the masses of backwards racist fascist morons change their attitudes (another 100 years perhaps), Israel is necessary. And it is again too bad for the Palestinians. Maybe their rich Arab brethren could do more to help them instead of cynically using them as pawns against Israel. Maybe the Palis could do more to be constructive instead of destructive[. Maybe Israel and a group of countries could donate enough money to help them resettle.

For them to keep fighting an unwinnable battle, which most of them were not even born in time to legitimately claim a "right of return" (you can't return to somewhere you've never been), is beyond stupid and immensely destructive. If they want a better life let them start doing things constructive instead of embracing a nihilistic fanatical vision that has no hope of success. Hopefully then too other countries can be swayed to chip in financially in a meaningful way.

[PITTM]

man, nothing like horribly biased opinions on who is right and who is wrong. actually saying the isreali jews are TEN PERCENT wrong is sooooo funny you have no idea. good luck with actually thinking that though...

rj

[iraise50]

[ QUOTE ]

....The Zionists went to a land where other people were already living and treated them like dirt. Whose fault was that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you get reality? Arabs living in Israel have more rights and freedoms than they do in Arab nations. They earn better wages.

I keep forgetting this is the neo-nazi hobbyist forums, not the poker-players forums.

[MMMMMM]

Well Pitt, all you have to do is look at history, and read or listen to the fairly recent sermons in Arabic. The Russians, Europeans and Arabs have long been HORRIBLY bigoted against the Jews, and have seriously opppressed them and treated them as second-class citizens (or worse). Admittedly it is just guesswork to say that is 90% of the overall blame, but I don't think the figure is all that far off.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"...its just as if they WERENT having a mass genocide against them..."
************************************************** ******
If there has been a genocide by the Israelis on the Palestinians then how come I hear the Palestinians still b*tching? Those Jews must be doing a pretty bad job of genocide. Maybe they should hire ex-Nazis as consultants so they can do a better job. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, silly accusations of "genocide" show either:
1. You don't know what the word means.
2. You don't know what the word means.
3. You don't know what the word means and your just mindlessly parroted propaganda from an Arab website.

[andyfox]

"it's nearly nothing compared to what the Jews went through for many centuries."

-This simply isn't true. The idea that the Jews were continuously being persecuted is simply a myth. While there was plenty of bad times and bad things that happened, this view of Jewish history is simple wrong.

"even in pre-Israel they were already having deadly riots against the Jews and doing other vicious things against them."

Of course. Has it ever been different when a people lived somewhere and were invaded? And when they were treated like dirt? BTW, my characterization of the treatment of the natives is based on Zionist descriptions of their own behavior; one can read Ahad Ha'am, or Jabotinsky or any other number of Zionists writers who ralized that their treament of the natives would come back to bite them in the ass.

You are, of course, correct about anti-Semitism in the Arab world. And, as you know, I've disparaged both the Jews and the Palestinians for their treatment of each other. Unfortunately, seeing "masses" of "backwards racist fascist morons" will produce people seeing exactly the same thing.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
"it's nearly nothing compared to what the Jews went through for many centuries."

-This simply isn't true. The idea that the Jews were continuously being persecuted is simply a myth. While there was plenty of bad times and bad things that happened, this view of Jewish history is simple wron

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy I already retracted the "continuously" part and replaced it with something like "repeatedly" or "thematically". I can't believe you missed that? And yes the sufferings of the Palestinians have been relatively small compared to the Holocaust, or to the Russian oppressions and murders...or compared to the length of time the Jews were oppressed under Islam.

[ QUOTE ]

You are, of course, correct about anti-Semitism in the Arab world. And, as you know, I've disparaged both the Jews and the Palestinians for their treatment of each other. Unfortunately, seeing "masses" of "backwards racist fascist morons" will produce people seeing exactly the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh-huh. So you think it is somehow more constructive to deny reality? I believe in a rational approach, and denying the rampant racism and backwardness found in the Arab/Muslim world today is simply nonsensical. And I don't believe you get better results by denying reality. In fact unless reality is confronted, there can generally be no solution--to anything. So if you see a high concentration of ignorant bigots somewhere, it is WRONG to deny it.

The primary problem is the racism and backwardness itself--not the overt identification of it as such.

[andyfox]

No, I don't think it's constructive to deny reality. I think it's counterproductive to the nth degree to call the "masses" fascists and morons and backwards. There are undoubtedly fascists and morons on both sides of the dispute. We can both bring up numerous examples. One of your prior posts indicated (and my apology if this is a wrong interpretation) that if you were going to assign "blame" for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict you would assign 90% to the Palestinian side. Reality disputes that notion.

In any event, as I've posted before, it's time to stop blaming and start negotiating. I'm glad Arafat is gone from the scene, all parties seem to believe there's a much greater chance for progress with the current leader. I hope Sharon leaves the stage soon too.

BTW, the Jews fared much better under Islam than they did under Christianity.

And anyway, the Yankees won tonight for the first time in a month, so I'm feeling a bit better now.

[PITTM]

haha, you really showed me! sorry, by genocide i meant they kill them continuously... if trends continue it WILL be a genocide.

rj

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

....The Zionists went to a land where other people were already living and treated them like dirt. Whose fault was that?

[/ QUOTE ]
I keep forgetting this is the neo-nazi hobbyist forums, not the poker-players forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typical. Every person who dares dispute the official historical line handed down by the small minority of zionist historians ("A land without people for a people without a lan") is, sooner or later, labeled a nazi or a anti-semite.

[Gamblor]

Now, let's go back and remember why these arabs are dying.

1) Arab terrorist decides to send his associate on kamikaze mission to shoot up some kids in israeli shopping mall, nightclub, bus.

2) Israeli government gets intelligence and information on the accomplices to the attack, who built the bomb, dispatched the terrorist, etc. etc.

3) Israeli Defence forces conduct manhunt in Nablus to find the accomplice, face resistance from locals who, in violation of Oslo peace agreements, have possession of light arms i.e. kalashnikov rifles, as well stolen israel army uniforms and crude rockets.

4) idf gets in gunfight in downtown nablus, stray bullets hit children.

5) international condemnation from european media, intelligentsia organize boycott of israel, you all get your daily injection of moral superiority and smugness.

6) some [censored] here has the nerve to call it genocide.

if you truly believe it is the israeli government's intention to eventually murder 4 million arabs 10 at a time you're clearly insane.

[Felix_Nietsche]

When you falsely use words like "genocide" you undermine your credability and it cheapens real acts of genocide (Rwanda, Holocaust, etc...).

[PITTM]

ALL of the jews didnt die in the holocaust, arent you undermining the credibility of the word too? what a strange argument! to use genocide ALL people must die...like this situation, where all people didnt die...

rj

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, let's go back and remember why these arabs are dying.

1) Arab terrorist decides to send his associate on kamikaze mission to shoot up some kids in israeli shopping mall, nightclub, bus.

2) Israeli government gets intelligence and information on the accomplices to the attack, who built the bomb, dispatched the terrorist, etc. etc.

3) Israeli Defence forces conduct manhunt in Nablus to find the accomplice, face resistance from locals who, in violation of Oslo peace agreements, have possession of light arms i.e. kalashnikov rifles, as well stolen israel army uniforms and crude rockets.

4) idf gets in gunfight in downtown nablus, stray bullets hit children.

5) international condemnation from european media, intelligentsia organize boycott of israel, you all get your daily injection of moral superiority and smugness.

6) some [censored] here has the nerve to call it genocide.

if you truly believe it is the israeli government's intention to eventually murder 4 million arabs 10 at a time you're clearly insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

from step one your argument is flawed. i dont know why you would START with that step. you think there was no cause for what they did? arabs just went out and started blowing up building for no reason?

step 2-4 are also horribly oversimplified. yes, all they do is just go find out who did it and then kill them and only them right? nope, they shoot a [censored] ROCKET at a building and expect to kill only a few people, and in addition, many innocent people die.

step 5-absolute joke. yeah, what smug idiots we all are for not supporting isreali helicoptors shooting rockets at buildings and killing innocent people...

step 6- sorry i guess, your argument is much much more ridiculous. your argument makes up facts that just arent true and are very misleading. the whole process is so cute and logical, no one innocent dies, the intelligence is always right on, the bombs are 100% precise, hell the isrealis may have never killed a single innocent arab person right? give me a break...

rj

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

....The Zionists went to a land where other people were already living and treated them like dirt. Whose fault was that?

[/ QUOTE ]
I keep forgetting this is the neo-nazi hobbyist forums, not the poker-players forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typical. Every person who dares dispute the official historical line handed down by the small minority of zionist historians ("A land without people for a people without a lan") is, sooner or later, labeled a nazi or a anti-semite.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you hitler? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

rj

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
The Palis have never had their own country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they have. It's called JORDAN. Majority pali population.

[iraise50]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

....The Zionists went to a land where other people were already living and treated them like dirt. Whose fault was that?

[/ QUOTE ]
I keep forgetting this is the neo-nazi hobbyist forums, not the poker-players forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typical. Every person who dares dispute the official historical line handed down by the small minority of zionist historians ("A land without people for a people without a lan") is, sooner or later, labeled a nazi or a anti-semite.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was almsot an accurate quote. You left out my actual reply to what I quoted.

Anti-Semite would be someone with a prejudice agaisnt any Semite...Arabs, Jews, and so on. But such a disregard for the Jewish victims, for a slanting of facts, for a dismissal of years of genocide agisnt Jews...yeah that smacks of neo-nazism/racism/jerkism to me. I'm probably the only Russian major here, and have written three graduate level term papers on Anti-Semitism in Russia. Aside from that, I was engaged to an Iranian Muslim woman previously and have studied the issue from an Islamic point of view. (Just saying I'm not a knee-jerk anything, and can agree Israel doesn't do everything perfectly). That beign said Israel is not prosecuting a genocide aginst Arabs (what are Palestinians? most of the nations and their borders in the Mid-East are the result of a European General's pencil on a map.) You can't discuss the issue without a thorough knowledge of the history of the region. Some of the attitudes are blindly ignorant and decidedly Anti-Jewish. (I'm not merely meaning posters in one thread or another). I am going to stop commenting in this thread though...I came here for poker forums and this is an issue where I can and will discuss at an academic level with others I am at least familiar with. It is far too easy to lose focus and take thigns personally via thsi medium.

Best of luck to all of you.

[Felix_Nietsche]

ALL of the jews didnt die in the holocaust, arent you undermining the credibility of the word too? what a strange argument! to use genocide ALL people must die...like this situation, where all people didnt die...
************************************************** *******
A better response would have been just to concede you were a over-the-top by using the word "genocide" in your original post. Then I would have said nothing else...

I don't know if your response is just a silly attempt to salvage your pride or you still don't know what the word genocide means....

[PITTM]

i did concede i was wrong, but i thought it was a bit absurd for you to accuse me of not knowing what the word meant and then using it in the complete incorrect sense IMMEDIATELY after.

rj

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
That was almost an accurate quote. You left out my actual reply to what I quoted.

[/ QUOTE ] You wrote, and I quote, "I keep forgetting this is the neo-nazi hobbyist forum, not the poker-players forum".

You can try and put your slur "in perspective" all you want, but you have just insulted the whole forum here as being a neo-nazi forum. Who cares what you were responding to?

[ QUOTE ]
Such a disregard for the Jewish victims, for a slanting of facts, for a dismissal of years of genocide agisnt Jews...yeah that smacks of neo-nazism/racism/jerkism to me.

[/ QUOTE ] Thanks for confirming what I said (i.e. that you accuse anyone who disagrees with your view of Israel) as being a nazi and an anti-semite , while trying to prove the opposite!

[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably the only Russian major here.

[/ QUOTE ] Excuse me, when did we engage in a discussion in and about Russian language here?

Translation: Another wild jump into conclusions from your part. Nice!


[ QUOTE ]
I was engaged to an Iranian Muslim woman previously and have studied the issue from an Islamic point of view.

[/ QUOTE ] What is that supposed to mean? What's the engagement with an Iranian gal have to do with anything? (And why did you two break up? /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

How on earth can you have studied the conflict from "an islamic p.o.v." when you are accuse anyone who disagrees with your take on Israel as a nazi?

Or are you saying that you have prepared "islamic p.o.v." reports for intelligence?

[ QUOTE ]
What are Palestinians? Most of the nations and their borders in the Mid-East are the result of a European General's pencil on a map.

[/ QUOTE ] And what does that make Israel? Which is a Middle East nation, last I checked.



[ QUOTE ]
You can't discuss the issue without a thorough knowledge of the history of the region.

[/ QUOTE ] You have just disqualified yourself.


[ QUOTE ]
This is an issue where I can and will discuss at an academic level with others I am at least familiar with.

[/ QUOTE ] My business card is in the mail.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Blarg]

Thank goodness being war-like isn't something that afflicts the Israelis or Americans.

[Gamblor]

eat balls.

some people aren't given the choice.

arabs can afford to lose a war here and there

if jews lose one war, its all over.