And they say there's no good content around here anymore...

[wuwei]

This hand stems from a gem of a post from Apathy the other day. Thanks man.

Thoughts on the hand? This is a party 55.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t2680)
MP1 (t910)
MP2 (t680)
CO (t910)
Button (t1605)
SB (t1225)
Hero (t930)
UTG (t1060)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t60, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t45, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t240) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t30</font>, SB calls t30, Hero calls t30, UTG calls t30.

Turn: (t360) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t175</font>, UTG calls t175, MP2 folds, SB folds.

River: (t710) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t125</font>, Hero calls t125.

Final Pot: t960

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand stems from a gem of a post from Apathy the other day. Thanks man.

Thoughts on the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive got one, what are you asking?

Phill

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand stems from a gem of a post from Apathy the other day. Thanks man.

Thoughts on the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive got one, what are you asking?

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, lets start with the turn bet...

[Phill S]

Really?

Id start with the preflop call. This is a fold.

Then the flop - check call small bets only

Turn, see above.

River, he didnt raise you off yet? See above for your play.

Worst case scenario you lose 100-150 chips, but i like to check call this down (i can see folding at any street your bet into also being correct).

But id fold preflop anyway.

Phill

edit: not wanting to end this thread, why bet out the turn - what is your intention here? What do you want villain to think?

[pokerlaw]

when I call this bet preflop, I am NOT happy with this flop. top pair dont mean anything to me with that kicker.

I would probably call the flop bet hoping to two pair or be able to showdown the hand cheap - the odds are pretty good, and that bet is so tiny. However, I could live with a fold here. Since I didnt get what I wanted on the turn, I remain in check/fold to big bets.

Its odd that UTG called here on the flop after miniraising and then checking (did he have AA?). His river bet is screaming for a call, i think he really likes his hand. I fold to the river bet.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Really?

Id start with the preflop call. This is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, getting 7:1 with a suited ace closing the action, I think this is a pretty easy call if I can play adequately postflop. Can I play adequately? Well, that's the question... only way to find out is to give it a shot. If nothing else, I'll learn something.

[ QUOTE ]
Then the flop - check call small bets only

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that's what I did.

[ QUOTE ]
edit: not wanting to end this thread, why bet out the turn - what is your intention here? What do you want villain to think?

[/ QUOTE ]

The villian that bet the flop smacked of weakness, and the turn card was very safe for me. I wanted to put the pressure back on him and find out where he stands. I'm also avoiding offering a free card if by chance I have the best hand on this draw heavy board. If I'm raised, I'm done with the hand.

UTG seemed like the type that would have bet the flop if they had an A. Something like KK, JJ, or garbage seemed more likely to me after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
River, he didnt raise you off yet? See above for your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually checked the safe river planning on calling a lot of bets. I figured that at this point, I'm more likely to induce a bluff then get called by a hand that I beat.

Overall, I liked the way I played the hand once I made the reads I did and got involved. My final question is should I be getting involved in a field this big with a board that full of draws? There's a lot of rivers that make me cringe.

[runner4life7]

I fold this also preflop just because of the reason you showed, if you get your ace what do you do? I fold this unless i get two pair or my flush/str8 without thinking. I will never be betting at any point. Im assuming you lost this hand maybe not, but its just too many chips to be wasting at this point.

[Bigwig]

Preflop call is perfectly fine for less than 3% of your stack.

I might, however, fold the flop.

I'm certainly not betting out on the turn.

It's not just UTG that I'm thinking about. You have two other callers. The probability of one holding an A is simply far too high. But seeing what happens on the turn for 30 chips isn't a crime. Slapping that big bet out there seems like a good way to lose a lot of chips fast.

[pokerraja]

I can't belive that people are seriously saying to fold preflop. I would never imagine folding this hand preflop under these circumstances. I think the players here who say fold this hand preflop are probably so tight that they blind themselves to death every tourney.

As far as the rest of that hand, I can kind of see your line of thinking here. I've played a ton of the $55's and I will admit that your line of thinking and playing will win here alot of the times. Let me guess, UTG missed his flush?

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this also preflop just because of the reason you showed, if you get your ace what do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because I hit my ace doesn't mean I need to continue with this hand after the flop. If anyone had made a real bet, it would have been an easy fold.

[chisness]

I agree, folding preflop would seem absurd. But in calling, it's important to get AWAY from these flops not get deeper IN to them. The flop call isn't even worth it, IMO. Someone could have a higher two pair, someone could have a set, someone could continue to bet the minimum the whole time with a better kicker than you.

I like playing this preflop for flush/trip 5/2 pair value. These are rare, but the pot odds are also huge, making it well worth it when they do hit.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the rest of that hand, I can kind of see your line of thinking here. Let me guess, UTG missed his flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep! But he made his straight and MHING...

[ QUOTE ]
I've played a ton of the $55's and I will admit that your line of thinking and playing will win here alot of the times.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's good to hear. I'm still wondering if this flop is a little too scary to mess around, but it seemed worth a shot.

All part of the journey moving beyond push/fold/moran.

[tech]

I am curious ... what post by Apathy are you talking about? And what did it change for you in this hand?

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
I am curious ... what post by Apathy are you talking about? And what did it change for you in this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This one. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=255 1492&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25 &amp;Main=2551434&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=8673&amp; daterange=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=w&amp;olderval=&amp;older type=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2551492) It's a line I don't use enough, but it's a very sensible way to play a medium strength hand that you think might be the best hand. Of course, that hand is a bit different (smaller field, middle pair and no ace on the board). The post was fresh in my mind, and after the flop bet smelled so weak I wanted to continue with the hand. I don't think I would have led the turn if I hadn't read that post the other day. But this line is better than checking and calling, and a c/r on the flop isn't appealing either.

[hummusx]

I normally fold this preflop, and here's why: you're less than 7:1 to make a good hand (2 pair+), and in a number of those cases you are going to be behind or not get paid off well (if you make your flush, a lot of times people will be very scared of it). My edge comes primarily from bubble play, so the risk at this point in the game with a hand like this just isn't worth it to me. If I played fewer tables, or I cared about playing more poker, sure 7:1 is decent enough as long as I know I can get off the hand in cases like the one you posted.

On the flop, this is EXACTLY the way that I sometimes play a big hand. I personally wouldn't here because of the flush draw, but min-betting a flop when I make a huge hand often works out very well because people read it as weak much more than simply checking (as you did). I'm hoping to bet T30 and get raised, but getting called and then bet into on the turn works just as well.

I think the bet on the river is nearly a guarantee that you lost - what hands that you beat are betting like this here? A bluff is going to bet more.

[stillbr]

I'm supprised how many people are saying fold pre-flop. I think this is an easy call. After this flop this hand accually becomes quite tricky. And, NO its not an easy fold after the flop, but with no reads whatsoever I would call the flop bet, check/fold the turn if it was a decent sized bet, bet the river if the turn was checked through.

[The once and future king]

people saying fold = people who missed the fact that you were last to act in the BB.

Calling 30 chips into a pot of 190 meh, you can if you want, if you dont want to meh as well.

[Moonsugar]

This is not a good situation for that line.

preflopcall fine, flop call fine, turn bet bad

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a good situation for that line.

preflopcall fine, flop call fine, turn bet bad

[/ QUOTE ]

[RobGW]

The PF call depends on how well you play post flop. If you are new or are multitabling, it may be best to just fold PF. If you think you can outplay your opponents on the flop then you can call. On the flop however, is where things get tricky. You have TPWK. MP2 makes a weak bet and everyone only calls. OK, you may or may not have the best hand at this point. If you do have the best hand, how often is it going to hold up? If you don't have the best hand how often are you going to catch up? This is just a difficult position. I think you made a great read in that you had the best hand but that doesn't always mean that it will hold up as you found out. Overall, I think you played it well, your hand just didn't hold up. That's the danger of getting involved with these types of hands. When this works out you look like a genious, but when they don't...

[Jay36489]

I would call this PF, then check this flop. If I wanted to see where I'm at, a raise after his minbet on the flop is where I would do it. Usually I would get away from it though, depending on the person.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't belive that people are seriously saying to fold preflop. I would never imagine folding this hand preflop under these circumstances. I think the players here who say fold this hand preflop are probably so tight that they blind themselves to death every tourney.

As far as the rest of that hand, I can kind of see your line of thinking here. I've played a ton of the $55's and I will admit that your line of thinking and playing will win here alot of the times. Let me guess, UTG missed his flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant agree more....I am so floored. I would call with a lot less here....any suited connecter even a 2 connecter...maybe even unsuited.

The only way I can see the PF folding rationale is if youre the type of player that has trouble getting away from marginal hands if the flop hits you somewhat. This says more about your discipline than your preflop play. If you are unable to get away from hands in mulitway pots then you should adjust your game there...but compensating for this leak by not completing the action getting 7-1 w A5s is atrocious.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't belive that people are seriously saying to fold preflop. I would never imagine folding this hand preflop under these circumstances. I think the players here who say fold this hand preflop are probably so tight that they blind themselves to death every tourney.

As far as the rest of that hand, I can kind of see your line of thinking here. I've played a ton of the $55's and I will admit that your line of thinking and playing will win here alot of the times. Let me guess, UTG missed his flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant agree more....I am so floored. I would call with a lot less here....any suited connecter even a 2 connecter...maybe even unsuited.

The only way I can see the PF folding rationale is if youre the type of player that has trouble getting away from marginal hands if the flop hits you somewhat. This says more about your discipline than your preflop play. If you are unable to get away from hands in mulitway pots then you should adjust your game there...but compensating for this leak by not completing the action getting 7-1 w A5s is atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think like you. And i can get away from second best hands on the flop. I quite like my flop on play to be honest.

But in the past couple of weeks ive divorced myself from weak aces early on. The odds against hitting something dont way with the odds your getting on the preflop call.

I guess its true that if you come to this forum often enough you become weak tight too, but in this case im now converted.

Phill

[Unarmed]

Turn bet = good. You have the best hand after that flop action. Honestly, I would have raised the flop when it came back around.

When it comes back around to you the second time on the flop its pretty clear that:

MP2 has garbage (a draw or a weak Q most likely)
SB has air. He just calls the 30 so you don't have to worry that he was sandbagging a monster into the PF raiser.
UTG has already announced that he doesn't have an ace by checking a draw heavy board into 3 opponents.

Given you called and UTG just calls you almost certainly have the best hand, so leading the turn is good.

I'd like to hear your rationale for checking the river. I think you're ahead of KK/JJ/whatever and should value bet. If the flush ace wasn't on the board I'd be more likely to check and allow a potential missed draw to bluff.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't belive that people are seriously saying to fold preflop. I would never imagine folding this hand preflop under these circumstances. I think the players here who say fold this hand preflop are probably so tight that they blind themselves to death every tourney.

As far as the rest of that hand, I can kind of see your line of thinking here. I've played a ton of the $55's and I will admit that your line of thinking and playing will win here alot of the times. Let me guess, UTG missed his flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant agree more....I am so floored. I would call with a lot less here....any suited connecter even a 2 connecter...maybe even unsuited.

The only way I can see the PF folding rationale is if youre the type of player that has trouble getting away from marginal hands if the flop hits you somewhat. This says more about your discipline than your preflop play. If you are unable to get away from hands in mulitway pots then you should adjust your game there...but compensating for this leak by not completing the action getting 7-1 w A5s is atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think like you. And i can get away from second best hands on the flop. I quite like my flop on play to be honest.

But in the past couple of weeks ive divorced myself from weak aces early on. The odds against hitting something dont way with the odds your getting on the preflop call.

I guess its true that if you come to this forum often enough you become weak tight too, but in this case im now converted.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not that I am advocating playing "weak aces" per se early...but playing hands that can become huge and paid off with such little overlay.

people have to bear in mind that this hand CAN win despite the kicker problems as well...It will often be checked around and a Q might call on the turn etc...

I play a 1500 starting stack so maybe these are apples and oranges we are discussing...but this part of the game can be summed up neatly as risk/reward...here there is little risk to potentially reap a lot of reward.

All in all, if you take into account flush/straight two pair and trips...plus winning without any of above, getting 7-1 to close the action is fine calling only 30. You never HAVE any obligations beyond that.,

[allintuit]

I disagree. I think that the best advice is to get away from this hand very early because of the kicker problems. Although, I think that this hand comes down to a bankroll question. I would mabye push this hand if I had a huge bankroll and 1 55 dollar loss wouldn't cut into my bottom line a lot.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I think that the best advice is to get away from this hand very early because of the kicker problems. Although, I think that this hand comes down to a bankroll question. I would mabye push this hand if I had a huge bankroll and 1 55 dollar loss wouldn't cut into my bottom line a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats absurd...no offense.

If you BR is 55 or 300 for that matter, you have no business playing this tourney in the first place...let alone this hand.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn bet = good. You have the best hand after that flop action. Honestly, I would have raised the flop when it came back around.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do when you get called and the pot is ~ 600? I'm pretty much pot committed at that point, and that is a spot with which I'm not comfortable. In addition, I like the idea of seeing a safe turn before I commit more chips to this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to hear your rationale for checking the river. I think you're ahead of KK/JJ/whatever and should value bet. If the flush ace wasn't on the board I'd be more likely to check and allow a potential missed draw to bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't argue with you here. I spent the whole time putting him on a draw, and when I'm HU on the river OOP against an opponent who I think was drawing and missed, I'm usually checking. There's also the whole "I want to puke if I get raised" factor.

[elcheapo]

Preflop and flop are fine, I'd checkraise all in on another weak bet and call and take my loose change. People like to make their moves on the turn and you'd get to see everybodys response before acting. Nobody will bet 30 AK,AQ,two pair there on the turn with that board so you'll kick out draws and maybe a hand like A8,A9 with a push

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

What do you do when you get called and the pot is ~ 600? I'm pretty much pot committed at that point, and that is a spot with which I'm not comfortable. In addition, I like the idea of seeing a safe turn before I commit more chips to this hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm ok with both lines really. If I raise the flop and get called I'm pushing any non-spade turn.