HU turn raise in position - draws [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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sy_or_bust

06-05-2005, 08:36 PM

This session I was on the lookout for good spots to exploit my position on the turn. These hands didn't work out so well, but I'm not convinced I played them terribly - what do you think?

This first hand is a blindsteal vs. a TAG. On the turn, I felt like I had excellent fold equity (UI overs) with very little chance of resistance (doh!) and a solid draw. I had seen Villain 3-bet the flop HU with AK UI before.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Here I have position again against a loose-aggressive (particularly postflop), and (very questionably) pounded the turn against a possible AA. How would you play this street?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (7 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

River: (15 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 16 BB

ISF

06-05-2005, 08:44 PM

I would cap the flop in hand one. And just call if bet into on the turn even with the fd. As well I would take the free card in hand two. I really dont think you have much folding equity vs a limp reraiser.

SkyRocker

06-05-2005, 08:48 PM

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I had seen Villain 3-bet the flop HU with AK UI before.

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If you put Villain on something like AK, do you really think he will fold to a raise in a pot this big on the turn?

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Here I have position again against a loose-aggressive (particularly postflop)

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Against a too loose and aggressive opponent postflop the only thing a bet would do preflop is to make villain's play postflop more correct. I limp this.

ALL1N

06-05-2005, 09:15 PM

Hand 1 - I much prefer call flop and raise if a high card turns; this seems the best way to fold better aces and overcards.

Hand 2 - What are you doing? Don't isolate LAG with trash. Don't raise your draw when you have very little fold equity and a third person to act behind. Don't reraise your draw on the turn when it's clear you're behind. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

sy_or_bust

06-05-2005, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - I much prefer call flop and raise if a high card turns; this seems the best way to fold better aces and overcards.

Hand 2 - What are you doing? Don't isolate LAG with trash. Don't raise your draw when you have very little fold equity and a third person to act behind. Don't reraise your draw on the turn when it's clear you're behind. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

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I needed that wake-up call on the second hand. I grossly misjudged my equity, which is only about 33% /images/graemlins/crazy.gif. I compounded a few errors with the OESD/FD, when taking the free card was what I intended to do in the first place. Though I still think the flop raise is the right play, everything else reeks.

Surfbullet

06-05-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This first hand is a blindsteal vs. a TAG. On the turn, I felt like I had excellent fold equity (UI overs) with very little chance of resistance (doh!) and a solid draw. I had seen Villain 3-bet the flop HU with AK UI before.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain 3bet you preflop. While he is likely 3betting light in defense of his blind, the majority of his holdings (PPs, bigger aces) are ahead of you here. He's sufficiently aggressive to 3bet AK UI (which is still way ahead of you!) but you have odds to peel one on the flop, so do so. The flop raise has almost 0 fold equity and this aggressive player is unlikely to give you a free card.
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Turn: (6.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain here is TAGish and has 3bet you preflop and on the flop. He's not even folding AK UI here because the pot is so big, and it looks very much like he's got a hand. You are still behind the worst of his holdings. Call again b/c you picked up the flush draw.
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River: (12.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good.

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Here I have position again against a loose-aggressive (particularly postflop), and (very questionably) pounded the turn against a possible AA. How would you play this street?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (7 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Take the free card here. Villain is laggy, so often you will hit on the river, but he will bet into you anyway, allowing you to raise. You have tons of outs but you are still behind, and don't have enough equity to raise for value. There's definitely an argument for semibluffing the turn, but getting raised sucks and you don't have much fold equity.

Using position to raise the turn is useful, but the more important issue here is your opponents have shown you significant strength in these hands preflop and on the flop, choose your spots more wisely - against opponents who are more likely to have a foldable hand.

Surf

cartman

06-06-2005, 08:58 AM

I agree that in these hands you had near zero folding equity and plenty of danger of being 3-bet. On a more general note
in my opinion, raising with a draw on the turn against a typical opponent in this game is a huge mistake. The reason is that the typical opponent is simply incapable of folding anything (a pair, two overcards, often one overcard, any draw) to a raise after betting himself. With an A high draw you may set up a free showdown, but I think you are better off just calling the turn for at least a few reasons. First, you can still call on the river if you feel like there is sufficient probability you have the best hand. Second, you don't open yourself up to an unnecessary 3-bet. Third, if you do make your draw on the river you would like to have him bet into you. If my understanding of this play is accurate, raising with a draw can only be profitable if there is at least some chance of your opponent folding a better hand immediately on the turn. Am I wrong?

Cartman

Jeff W

06-06-2005, 09:01 AM

When you get 3-bet on the flop or check-raised on the turn, you have very little fold equity.

Also, I would call pre flop in hand two.

spamuell

06-06-2005, 09:06 AM

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If my understanding of this play is accurate, raising with a draw can only be profitable if there is at least some chance of your opponent folding a better hand immediately on the turn. Am I wrong?

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Heads-up, no you're right.

Except possibly in a situation like you have two overcards and a straight flush draw to your opponent's underpair and the board is paired so if it pairs again you'll win with a higher kicker. You probably have more than 50% equity then. But of course that's really rare. It can happen though (http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1013390) but really that's such a rare exception it was stupid of me to waste a paragraph on it, especially as you can never know your opponent has an underpair.

pjsub

06-06-2005, 10:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 - What are you doing? Don't isolate LAG with trash. Don't raise your draw when you have very little fold equity and a third person to act behind. Don't reraise your draw on the turn when it's clear you're behind. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

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Although I wouldn't play this hand like this pre-flop, I would usually raise this flop and try and get the free card on the turn. And, after picking up the OESD on the turn would have probably bet the turn (but not re-raise). But I'm fairly new to short handed.

Surfbullet

06-06-2005, 12:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 - What are you doing? Don't isolate LAG with trash. Don't raise your draw when you have very little fold equity and a third person to act behind. Don't reraise your draw on the turn when it's clear you're behind. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I wouldn't play this hand like this pre-flop, I would usually raise this flop and try and get the free card on the turn. And, after picking up the OESD on the turn would have probably bet the turn (but not re-raise). But I'm fairly new to short handed.

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Take the free card! Your hand improved by picking up 8 more outs, but you still have almost no fold equity.

Surf

kiddo

06-06-2005, 12:56 PM

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I would usually raise this flop and try and get the free card on the turn.

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Which hands do u think UTG is limp-reraising preflop? I much prefer SB to stay in hand and give me odds then going HU with Q high draw against UTG limpreraiser.

ALL1N

06-06-2005, 07:35 PM

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Which hands do u think UTG is limp-reraising preflop? I much prefer SB to stay in hand and give me odds then going HU with Q high draw against UTG limpreraiser.

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Ding! Flop raise = bad.

Surfbullet

06-06-2005, 10:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which hands do u think UTG is limp-reraising preflop? I much prefer SB to stay in hand and give me odds then going HU with Q high draw against UTG limpreraiser.

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Ding! Flop raise = bad.

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The issue here is that we have little chance of winning by spiking a pair, so it's better to allow SB in to pad our equity. LAGy UTGs limp-reraise is way more often than not some weird crap like mediocre aces, PPs, or suited stuff, and buying a free card should be a strong consideration heads-up.

Surf

climber

06-07-2005, 03:21 AM

Yeah raising is all well and good but you need to wait til you actually have a hand. No is going to fold with this kind of action so you can save yourself some money.