I hate poor people [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Alobar

06-05-2005, 07:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you assumptions are wrong and offensive, but ignoring that, if someone is stupid, why do you think that means that they deserve to be poor? People don't choose to be stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not talking mentally challenged stupid. Im talking the kind of stupid where you cant afford a door for your "house" but you spend $45 on pizza the day your welfare check comes out.

Getting off the freeway today I see a guy in proly his mid 30s who had no obvious malformities, holding your typical "im poor please help me" sign. [censored] that guy. He doesnthave to be there begging for change, and I dont care what anybody says, that man is capable of making honest money. 2 blocks down the road there is a group of mexicans who made one helluva hard jounry to get in this country, whove been standing there since about 5am waiting for someone to pick them up and give them some back breaking manual labor to do, and then get paid less than $5 an hour. Of which they send most of back home to thier family. But trailor trash whitey on the freeway corer would rather beg than do honest work that people who have it much rougher than him, risk thier lifes just for the opportunity to do.

I love going to walmart and watching some dirt poor family buy groceries. Lets see, weve got no money and we live in a shity house, what should we buy? oooo, I know, lets spend $20 on beer. Lets see, if I bought ingredients and cooked food we could save money and use it for things we need, but naah, I cant be troubled with that, Im gunna buy these $5 frozen pizzas instead. oh hey, cookies!

These arent assumptions, this is the reality.

Mason Hellmuth

06-05-2005, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, a large percentage of poor people in America are fat.

Is this a great country or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good nutrition is much more expensive than bad.

Jazza

06-05-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If everyone in the world lived the lifestyle of the average American the world would have to be nine times larger in order to handle the resource requirements.

Some people have to be poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

just making sure we're on the same page, what you mean is some people have to be poor for america to exist the way america does, yeah?

Alobar

06-05-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, a large percentage of poor people in America are fat.

Is this a great country or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good nutrition is much more expensive than bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is sooo wrong. You can feed a family 50 times cheaper by cooking decent food, instead of being a fast food whore (which isnt a coincidence that most people are).

imported_CaseClosed326

06-05-2005, 07:12 PM

Respect level down, way down.

tbach24

06-05-2005, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Respect level down, way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can differ in opinion with someone, but to lose respect for a person who is being honest is stupid.

mason55

06-05-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Respect level down, way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can differ in opinion with someone, but to lose respect for a person who is being honest is stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have much more respect for a person who honestly discussed their unpopular opinion than someone who was just a sheep.

Jazza

06-05-2005, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Respect level down, way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can differ in opinion with someone, but to lose respect for a person who is being honest is stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if you call some one stupid for being honest?

Wes ManTooth

06-05-2005, 07:20 PM

I can easily think of 10 thinks that i hate more then poor people... you have issues.

BottlesOf

06-05-2005, 07:23 PM

Wow, your posts are usually very good. This one is pretty sucky.

brassnuts

06-05-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Respect level down, way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can differ in opinion with someone, but to lose respect for a person who is being honest is stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Through someone's honesty, an aspect of that person might be revealed which causes someone else to lose respect for him.

imported_CaseClosed326

06-05-2005, 07:24 PM

Something about using only personal stories for evidence why he thinks all poor people are lazy and/or stupid makes me lose respect.

Maybe it was because my family was dirt poor for a long time when I was young, and the only way we made it out was because we had family to fall back on. If not for that we would have been living off of government cheese right now, being too stupid to be rich and smart like alobar.

Now I understand that there are a lot people like alobar said that are too stupid/lazy to get out of their own rut. I just lose respect for people who lump everyone together in one un-informed statement.

Blarg

06-05-2005, 07:25 PM

People are born poor, just as they're born rich. And a lot, lot more are born poor.

When you're born, you're a child.

Why do kids "deserve" poverty? What can they realistically do, as KIDS, to change it? Especially given the very inadequate or even counter-productive set of life tools they've been given?

By the way, once a kid is no longer a kid, that doesn't mean he's no longer poor. It just means suddenly he's got a bunch of people who should know better blaming him.

I wonder why people are so worried that their well-off spoiled brats are so fragile that they must worry desperately about their kids' "self-esteem," and even have classes in it, while poor people are summarily told to go [censored] themselves without a second thought, and their discomfort even gloried in -- usually without even a trace of irony.

Rich people endlessly indulging and spoiling themselves while at the same time bonding over the misfortunes of others is one of the uglier rituals in society.

StevieG

06-05-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Good nutrition is much more expensive than bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't say that I am with Alobar 100% on this thread, but I certainly agree with him in saying that this statement is untrue.

Dried beans, for example, would not only be cheap but would also form the staple of a very healthy diet.

Good, healthy food is cheap and plentiful in the U.S.

Yeti

06-05-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Respect level down, way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can differ in opinion with someone, but to lose respect for a person who is being honest is stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Through someone's honesty, an aspect of that person might be revealed which causes someone else to lose respect for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. tbach, if Clark/Diablo/mikel/whoever came on and admitted to being homophobic/racist/whatever, you wouldn't lose respect for them?

tbach24

06-05-2005, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Respect level down, way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can differ in opinion with someone, but to lose respect for a person who is being honest is stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Through someone's honesty, an aspect of that person might be revealed which causes someone else to lose respect for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. tbach, if Clark/Diablo/mikel/whoever came on and admitted to being homophobic/racist/whatever, you wouldn't lose respect for them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I guess so. It wouldn't matter the poster tho.

sam h

06-05-2005, 07:29 PM

It never fails to amaze me when people who always come across to me as intelligent based on their poker advice then demonstrate such ignorance about the world around them.

Have you ever stopped to consider where most of the world's poor people live and what circumstances they are born into? Do you really think there are 500 million people in India who are too lazy and stupid to escape poverty?

spamuell

06-05-2005, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you assumptions are wrong and offensive, but ignoring that, if someone is stupid, why do you think that means that they deserve to be poor? People don't choose to be stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not talking mentally challenged stupid. Im talking the kind of stupid where you cant afford a door for your "house" but you spend $45 on pizza the day your welfare check comes out.

Getting off the freeway today I see a guy in proly his mid 30s who had no obvious malformities, holding your typical "im poor please help me" sign. [censored] that guy. He doesnthave to be there begging for change, and I dont care what anybody says, that man is capable of making honest money. 2 blocks down the road there is a group of mexicans who made one helluva hard jounry to get in this country, whove been standing there since about 5am waiting for someone to pick them up and give them some back breaking manual labor to do, and then get paid less than $5 an hour. Of which they send most of back home to thier family. But trailor trash whitey on the freeway corer would rather beg than do honest work that people who have it much rougher than him, risk thier lifes just for the opportunity to do.

I love going to walmart and watching some dirt poor family buy groceries. Lets see, weve got no money and we live in a shity house, what should we buy? oooo, I know, lets spend $20 on beer. Lets see, if I bought ingredients and cooked food we could save money and use it for things we need, but naah, I cant be troubled with that, Im gunna buy these $5 frozen pizzas instead. oh hey, cookies!

These arent assumptions, this is the reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah OK this isn't what I thought you meant, firstly because of the within America thing and also because of what you meant by stupid. I also don't have much sympathy for people who make bad financial choices with full knowledge of what they're doing, although I do have some because of their limited choice.

Voltron87

06-05-2005, 07:30 PM

You can respect someone for expressing an unpopular opinion but not agree with them, I think different people in this thread are defining respect differently.

tomdemaine

06-05-2005, 07:31 PM

why surely no-one would make wild sweeping generalizations in OOT.

P.S. yes I know, surely noone would make snide sarcastic unfunny comments in OOT

CallMeIshmael

06-05-2005, 07:32 PM

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

The Stranger

06-05-2005, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can respect someone for expressing an unpopular opinion but not agree with them, I think different people in this thread are defining respect differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is possible for someone to go from my "good person" list to my "piece of crap" list. That is a loss of respect.

Nobody is on either list in this thread, I'm just addressing the semantic argument.

Jeff W

06-05-2005, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think charitable giving is bad solely because of the corruption within most charities

www.bbb.org (http://www.bbb.org)

[/ QUOTE ]

Has the BBB ever accomplished anything? That is not a rhetorical question.

TimM

06-05-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
just making sure we're on the same page, what you mean is some people have to be poor for america to exist the way america does, yeah?

[/ QUOTE ]

The choices are:

- Some rich and many poor in the world (with even poor Americans being on the rich side).
- No rich and everyone slightly less poor.

This is oversimplified because much of the disparity comes from living in areas that don't support basic human needs very well. Technology is the only way to improve the standard of living across the board (for example, cheap alternate energy providing desalinization and irrigation). But it will take time, and that technology would never be developed if everyone were poor.

twang

06-05-2005, 07:36 PM

Earlier today I sat down to write a post about something that has been bugging me forever. The topic was "Stupid smart people". I got a phone call so I never finished the post, but it was basically about this: There are intelligent people that in some aspects shows an amazing lack of understanding of very basic things. This is a lack of understanding that can not just be explained as opinion or having emotional reasons. It's more some kind of limited failure of logic, reason and all-round education.

I don't know if Alobar has some emotional/psychological reasons for a post like this - if not he provided a pretty good example of the phenomena I never wrote a post about.

/twang

nothumb

06-05-2005, 07:37 PM

Alobar, we generally have similar senses of humor and I would say we are both fairly pragmatic people. But I think you're way off here. I'm guessing you don't have a lot of experience working directly with poor people or their children.

I do, and I can tell you, many are guilty of all the behaviors you accuse them of, and more. Fiscal irresponsibility, drug abuse, poor work ethic, general incuriosity, etc. But working with poor or neglected children gives you an incredible perspective on where these behaviors come from.

They are learned. Children, including poor children, are adept at absorbing and reproducing the value systems and patterns they see around them. Many of them are extremely smart. Remember that the poor parents of today were the poor children of yesterday.

I won't go into all the ways that the culture of poverty is reproduced. I'm not a person who likes to ignore the responsibility people have for their actions - in fact, I consider it the single most important part of living a free and autonomous life. Suffice it to say that, although I hold my guys responsible for their own actions and expect nothing but the best from them (because anything less is condescending, fuzzy-headed do-goodism), talking with them and exploring how they think, it's shocking how LOGICAL their explanations for their behaviors are.

Basically, I think it often doesn't occur to us how many skills we were lucky enough to learn from our parents and communities. Skills and values that you assume any normal person would be taught are actually taken for granted far too often.

NT

brassnuts

06-05-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can respect someone for expressing an unpopular opinion but not agree with them, I think different people in this thread are defining respect differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Respect is respect. You might respect someone more for voicing an unpopular opinion or having to courage to 'fess up to something but, at the same time, lose respect for them because of this new knowledge about them. Weighing in the pros and cons on a case by case basis will yield you + or - RV (respected value).

tbach24

06-05-2005, 07:40 PM

Can't a large portion of the reasons why someone is poor be attributed to their families and life before 18? I don't think you can blame a person for having a bad background. People make lots of dumb decisions before 18.

mason55

06-05-2005, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can't a large portion of the reasons why someone is poor be attributed to their families and life before 18? I don't think you can blame a person for having a bad background. People make lots of dumb decisions before 18.

[/ QUOTE ]

tbach, I think you are someone who has definitely seen that first hand.

PS: Congrats on getting out of retard school

A_C_Slater

06-05-2005, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If everyone in the world lived the lifestyle of the average American the world would have to be nine times larger in order to handle the resource requirements.

Some people have to be poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

just making sure we're on the same page, what you mean is some people have to be poor for america to exist the way america does, yeah?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

...and in the southern deserts of Sudan the heat rises in airless waves, thousands upon thousands of men, women, children, roam throughout the vast bushland, desperately seeking food. Ravaged and starving, leaving a trail of dead, emaciated bodies, they eat weeds and leaves and... lily pads, stumbling from villiage to villiage, dying slowly, inexorably; a gray morning in the miserable desert, grit flies through the air, a child with a face like a black moon lies in the sand, scratching at his throat, cones of dust rising, flying across land like whirling tops, on one can see the sun, the child is covered with sand, almost dead, eyes unblinking, grateful (stop and imagine for an instant a world where someone is grateful for something) love and sadness rush through the boy.

Los Feliz Slim

06-05-2005, 07:52 PM

Your attempt to create controversy by using the word "hate" in such a ridiculous context has suckered me in. Cue violins:

I am thankful for the advantages my parents (who were not poor as adults, but whose parents were) gave me. If it were not for the opportunities their parents gave them (and various government funded social programs, such as both of their college educations), I do not believe they would have ended up in the position to give me the advantages they did (college, etc etc etc). Without those things, I don't believe I would have been as well situated to succeed as I am. Honestly, I believe I would have figured it out anyway, but it was a lot easier considering the foundation I was given.

I believe in helping those who are less fortunate so that perhaps the cycle that began with my parents' parents might begin again with them. No single person among us is going to en masse "help the poor", but I do think that everyone together can.

tbach24

06-05-2005, 07:58 PM

Thanks.

James Boston

06-05-2005, 08:13 PM

I think "lazy" is a much more appropriate word for the type of person you are describing in this thread.

Cyrus

06-05-2005, 08:30 PM

You fell for the following fallacies:

-- You generalized your personal experiences from a relatively small sample to extend over a while population (ie all America's poor).

-- You have assigned motives to people on the basis of their actions or status, and by ignoring all other relevant, socio-political factors. Your analysis focuses exclusively on human attitudes ("lazy or stupid"), so, unless we choose to completely discard political economy, it is fatally flawed.

-- You identified causality where there is only observation of effect.

-- Your definition of "stupid" is unclear, yet you built your whole argument around that term (and "lazy"). "Stupid" means (a) someone who cannot, even if he tries, behave more smartly, or (b) someone who is technically capable of doing the right thing, yet he opts not to. While you could make a case for "punishing" the latter person by letting him stay poor, you have not explained on what grounds people who are not capable of being smart should ot be helped at all.

Apart from those faults, your analysis was impeccable...

thatpfunk

06-05-2005, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Respect level down, way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alobar

06-05-2005, 08:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Alobar, we generally have similar senses of humor and I would say we are both fairly pragmatic people. But I think you're way off here. I'm guessing you don't have a lot of experience working directly with poor people or their children.

I do, and I can tell you, many are guilty of all the behaviors you accuse them of, and more. Fiscal irresponsibility, drug abuse, poor work ethic, general incuriosity, etc. But working with poor or neglected children gives you an incredible perspective on where these behaviors come from.

They are learned. Children, including poor children, are adept at absorbing and reproducing the value systems and patterns they see around them. Many of them are extremely smart. Remember that the poor parents of today were the poor children of yesterday.

I won't go into all the ways that the culture of poverty is reproduced. I'm not a person who likes to ignore the responsibility people have for their actions - in fact, I consider it the single most important part of living a free and autonomous life. Suffice it to say that, although I hold my guys responsible for their own actions and expect nothing but the best from them (because anything less is condescending, fuzzy-headed do-goodism), talking with them and exploring how they think, it's shocking how LOGICAL their explanations for their behaviors are.

Basically, I think it often doesn't occur to us how many skills we were lucky enough to learn from our parents and communities. Skills and values that you assume any normal person would be taught are actually taken for granted far too often.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

really great post.

First off, regardless of what most people think, I actually have alot of experience dealing with the poor. I grew up poor. I also grew up in New Mexico, which is one of the poorer states in the country (if not the poorest).

Anyway, back to your post. I completely agree that most of these behaviors are learned from parents. Which really sucks. Its the whole if you were abused when you are little, you are much more likely to grow up and be abusive, type thing. I feel like Adam Corolla when he begs the ignorant people who call into loveline, to not have any kids. The sad fact is that poor people usually are the people with the most kids (also a contributing factor to why they are poor). And it sucks for them, because they prolly will never learn any different.

Alobar

06-05-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Have you ever stopped to consider where most of the world's poor people live and what circumstances they are born into? Do you really think there are 500 million people in India who are too lazy and stupid to escape poverty?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I messed up in my original post. Im talking about America, not the world in general.

nothumb

06-05-2005, 08:52 PM

See, I had a feeling you actually had a modicum of compassion and common sense, and were just frustrated or something.

NT

spamuell

06-05-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]

-- You identified causality where there is only observation of effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though you expressed this in an almost incomprehensible way, I think it pretty much sums up the problem with what Alobar is saying.

Alobar

06-05-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Earlier today I sat down to write a post about something that has been bugging me forever. The topic was "Stupid smart people". I got a phone call so I never finished the post, but it was basically about this: There are intelligent people that in some aspects shows an amazing lack of understanding of very basic things. This is a lack of understanding that can not just be explained as opinion or having emotional reasons. It's more some kind of limited failure of logic, reason and all-round education.

I don't know if Alobar has some emotional/psychological reasons for a post like this - if not he provided a pretty good example of the phenomena I never wrote a post about.

/twang

[/ QUOTE ]

Ironic isnt it? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Basically, I know I hold an unpopular opinion, I also knew most people were going to tell me that "I dont understand" and that Im making "ignorant generalizations". But I honestly dont belive that, which is the point of my post. I believe that its most people who have a misconception about why or who poor people are.

Its also pretty [censored] up that the current lifestlye the not poor poeple in this country enjoy, is possible, soley because there are so many poor people in this country.

Jake (The Snake)

06-05-2005, 09:03 PM

Unfortunately, nobody here will be able to convince you that you are wrong. Since you've clearly never been poor or are close to poor people, you have no idea.

Jake (The Snake)

06-05-2005, 09:06 PM

Also, one particular thing that I'd like to point out:

(Generally)

rich people are not rich because they are smart.

rich people are smart because they are rich.

same goes for poor people because of access to education, etc.

Paluka

06-05-2005, 09:07 PM

Alobar I don't get it. When you say you hate poor people because they are stupid, you are saying that you hate people who are not intelligent enough to make a lot of money? So if somoene is born into poverty, isn't that smart, and never breaks out of the cycle you will then hate them? That is pretty awesome. You're a huge douchebag.

Alobar

06-05-2005, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, nobody here will be able to convince you that you are wrong. Since you've clearly never been poor or are close to poor people, you have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah your right. I was lying when I said I grew up poor and that I have lots of experience dealing with poor people. Or maybe you just didnt read that....

Alobar

06-05-2005, 09:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Alobar I don't get it. When you say you hate poor people because they are stupid, you are saying that you hate people who are not intelligent enough to make a lot of money? So if somoene is born into poverty, isn't that smart, and never breaks out of the cycle you will then hate them? That is pretty awesome. You're a huge douchebag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is everyone so hung up the word "stupid". Am I the only person that uses the term "stupid" to describe people who take a course of action they know isnt the best course of action? I'm not using the term as a reflection of IQ.

Also, why is everyone so black and white when it comes to poor. You can be not poor with out being rich. Im not saying everyone should be able to be rich, Im saying theres generally lots of easily avoidable factors that cause people to be poor, and if they didnt succumb to these things they wouldnt be poor. America isnt divided into two camps "rich" and "poor"

Jake (The Snake)

06-05-2005, 09:16 PM

Must've missed it. If that's the case I have no idea what to tell you. Maybe you think of stupid too broadly. Do you consider the average person to be stupid? The average (intelligence) person is the one most affected by being poor since it is extremely hard for he or she to overcome it. A highly intelligent person is able to see and seek out alternative means to accomplish things with little or no money. Average people do not. Average people are not stupid though, and think this may be where you are wrong.

Paluka

06-05-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alobar I don't get it. When you say you hate poor people because they are stupid, you are saying that you hate people who are not intelligent enough to make a lot of money? So if somoene is born into poverty, isn't that smart, and never breaks out of the cycle you will then hate them? That is pretty awesome. You're a huge douchebag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is everyone so hung up the word "stupid". Am I the only person that uses the term "stupid" to describe people who take a course of action they know isnt the best course of action? I'm not using the term as a reflection of IQ.

Also, why is everyone so black and white when it comes to poor. You can be not poor with out being rich. Im not saying everyone should be able to be rich, Im saying theres generally lots of easily avoidable factors that cause people to be poor, and if they didnt succumb to these things they wouldnt be poor. America isnt divided into two camps "rich" and "poor"

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were going to be upset when you got called a douchebag, maybe you should have said what you meant in the original post. Maybe you meant "I hate people who have every opportunity to be successful but throw it all away due to irresponsibility and laziness". But what you actually said was "I hate poor people".

Alobar

06-05-2005, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If you were going to be upset when you got called a douchebag

[/ QUOTE ]

woa, I'm not upset you called me a douchebag. I find it amusing you think this tho.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you meant "I hate people who have every opportunity to be successful but throw it all away due to irresponsibility and laziness".

[/ QUOTE ]

yes this is true
[ QUOTE ]
But what you actually said was "I hate poor people".

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, thats the exact same thing.

CharlesDarwin

06-05-2005, 09:39 PM

Alobar,

You are so stupid, that I find it quite amazing that you haven't accidentally electrocuted yourself yet.

How are the people who are passing on these genes doing it so successfully?

Alobar

06-05-2005, 09:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Alobar,

You are so stupid, that I find it quite amazing that you haven't accidentally electrocuted yourself yet.

How are the people who are passing on these genes doing it so successfully?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting gimmick account. I give you high marks for originality, yet there is almost zero potential for humor here. So I think this will turn out into yet another failed attempt at a succesful gimmick acount.

I should try creating a gimmick account, it looks like they are pretty hard to pull off. could be a fun challenge.

Ulysses

06-05-2005, 09:45 PM

If you care to educate yourself a little bit on this subject, here are a few books you might find enlightening.

Amazing Grace : Lives of Children and the Conscience of a Nation, The by Jonathan Kozol (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060976977/qid=1118022049/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-0696740-2878465?v=glance&s=books)

Rachel and Her Children : Homeless Families in America by Jonathan Kozol (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0449903397/qid=1118022049/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/002-0696740-2878465?v=glance&s=books)

There Are No Children Here : The Story of Two Boys Growing Up in The Other America by Alex Kotlowitz (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385265565/qid=1118022079/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0696740-2878465?v=glance&s=books)

Sponger15SB

06-05-2005, 10:03 PM

Have you read any of these books?

ggbman

06-05-2005, 10:03 PM

This is an ignorant thread to start. WHat about someone whose parents cannot afford to pay for college, and they cant afford it because their parents couldnt and they could never get a good job. Any good college these days is outrageously expensive, and would financially handicap any student for the nest decade at least. It's just ridiculous to make statements like this.

gorie

06-05-2005, 10:03 PM

sometimes people have a very, very, very difficult time finding a job.

Sponger15SB

06-05-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is an ignorant thread to start. WHat about someone whose parents cannot afford to pay for college, and they cant afford it because their parents couldnt and they could never get a good job. Any good college these days is outrageously expensive, and would financially handicap any student for the nest decade at least. It's just ridiculous to make statements like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

how about student loans?

everyone should be able to "afford" college.

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 10:06 PM

The reason that we should help the poor is that most of them have children. I support lots of help for single mothers with children, because it's not their fault that their childrens' dads are total deadbeats.

I don't support help for drug addicts who refuse to get sober and get a job, for example, but lots of people do really need the help. And I don't mind paying taxes to help them because I may be down on my luck someday.

partygirluk

06-05-2005, 10:08 PM

I don't think you phrased this post well.

Being from a poor background, even in a developed economy like the UK, is a discernable disadvantage. I come from a fairly well off family, and my path in life has been easier than that of my poorer friends from uni. Having said that, I do think that plenty of poor people spend too much time complaining about their lot and not enough doing something to change it. Looking at the success of e.g. the Indian and Jewish communities in the UK shows it is possible to work your way up from a very disadvantaged start to well off within a couple of generations with hard work.

But saying people are poor only because they are lazy or stupid is going too far IMO.

[censored]

06-05-2005, 10:08 PM

You usually seem pretty cool Alobar but you are way off here. I assume you can see how retarded something like loving and worshipping the rich would be. Hating poor people isn't any different. Judge people for who they are as individuals not for what they do or do not have in wordly possesions.

ChipWrecked

06-05-2005, 10:10 PM

Now, I don't get on the site very often any more, so I don't know this guy's posting history. But I'm pretty sure I smell troll here, geez. Worked pretty well, too.

I'm off to Carl's Jr. now.

partygirluk

06-05-2005, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you referring to poor people in America, or poor people in general?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess I shoulda prefaced that. I am refering to poor people in america.

[/ QUOTE ]

btw you should have mentioned this in your original post. People from some countries are basically fuc.ked from birth.

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at the success of e.g. the Indian and Jewish communities in the UK shows it is possible to work your way up from a very disadvantaged start to well off within a couple of generations with hard work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting thing that I quoted here. Please think about why the Indian and Jewish communities in Britain have become so successful. They had to, because the white British bigots treated them like total garbage when they first got there. They worked their asses off to get where they were, in the face of horrible discrimination.

So what's the solution? Do we start discriminating against other segments of poor people? No.

Ulysses

06-05-2005, 10:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Have you read any of these books?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all of them and many more on the topic.

ChipWrecked

06-05-2005, 10:17 PM

Kind of like how Mexicans do work the American blacks won't do. Y'know, like Presidente Fox said.

gorie

06-05-2005, 10:18 PM

oh yeah, and
[ QUOTE ]
Respect level down, way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Olof

06-05-2005, 10:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Rachel and Her Children : Homeless Families in America by Jonathan Kozol (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0449903397/qid=1118022049/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/002-0696740-2878465?v=glance&s=books)

[/ QUOTE ]

Publishers Weekly editorial review:

[ QUOTE ]
This disquieting report graphically portrays a world where babies are born to drug-using mothers with AIDS, where children are frequently murdered, jobs are scarce and a large proportion of the men are either in prison or on crack cocaine or heroin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alobar's post:

[ QUOTE ]
the only poor people I feel sorry for, are children, because they cant help that their parents (or parent) are stupid or lazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming that the review isn't completely inaccurate, I don't see why he should be in need of enlightening. People who chose to procreate under such circumstances are truly scum, no better than parents who beat, sexually abuse or murder their children.

chesspain

06-05-2005, 10:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can differ in opinion with someone, but to lose respect for a person who is being honest is stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you mean to say "...but to lose respect for a person who is stupid is being honest."

A_C_Slater

06-05-2005, 10:32 PM

I saw a legless bum today with a sign that said "help, crippled in Vietnam, need monies." And of course, I preceded to do the old "wave a dollar in front of the bum" trick, before pulling it away from his grasp at the last instant.

I then leaned in and hissed in his ear "you were never in Vietnam" and then he says "oh please don't hurt me" and I respond by saying "why would I waste my fuking time" in a disgusted tone. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Who are these people? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sponger15SB

06-05-2005, 10:34 PM

Holy crap please tell me this is a joke and you're not completely insane.

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Holy crap please tell me this is a joke and you're not completely insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure it is a joke. But if it's not, Slater has just earned a trip to hell.

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Kind of like how Mexicans do work the American blacks won't do. Y'know, like Presidente Fox said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vicente Fox is a tool, and a bigot. I don't know if the homie is even Mexican. Spanish would be my guess.

It was a really random and stupid thing for him to say. But that little Saddam look-alike, Fox, hoards tons of money while his people starve to death.

A_C_Slater

06-05-2005, 10:37 PM

The guy was like, 35 years old. No way he was in Nam.

Idiot.

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 10:38 PM

You conveniently left out that part of the story.

ilya

06-05-2005, 10:38 PM

I don't believe that you're being entirely honest with yourself. There's something else going on here psychologically.

Alobar

06-05-2005, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that you're being entirely honest with yourself. There's something else going on here psychologically.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. Like what?

SpearsBritney

06-05-2005, 10:52 PM

When are people going to realize that the world is just one big festering sh!thole, and that human beings are nothing more than giant sewer rats in desperate need of mass extermination?

JaBlue

06-05-2005, 10:52 PM

You are an [censored].

partygirluk

06-05-2005, 10:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When are people going to realize that the world is just one big festering [censored][/b]hole, and that human beings are nothing more than giant sewer rats in desperate need of mass extermination?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some Austrian guy realised that 70 years ago.

A_C_Slater

06-05-2005, 10:55 PM

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 10:57 PM

Ok just shut up, please.

I disagree with Alobar on this, but your made up stories are getting more and more disgusting.

Slacker13

06-05-2005, 10:58 PM

Anytime a begger approaches me and you know they are going to ask you for money, well before they get a chance to ask me I ask them first if they have any money they can spare.
It stops them dead in their tracks and they don't know what the hell to say.

Alobar

06-05-2005, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When are people going to realize that the world is just one big festering [censored][/b]hole, and that human beings are nothing more than giant sewer rats in desperate need of mass extermination?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some Austrian guy realised that 70 years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Hitler had the right idea, he was just an underacheiver" ---Bill Hicks

Subfallen

06-05-2005, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
People are born poor, just as they're born rich. And a lot, lot more are born poor.

When you're born, you're a child.

Why do kids "deserve" poverty? What can they realistically do, as KIDS, to change it? Especially given the very inadequate or even counter-productive set of life tools they've been given?

By the way, once a kid is no longer a kid, that doesn't mean he's no longer poor. It just means suddenly he's got a bunch of people who should know better blaming him.

I wonder why people are so worried that their well-off spoiled brats are so fragile that they must worry desperately about their kids' "self-esteem," and even have classes in it, while poor people are summarily told to go [censored] themselves without a second thought, and their discomfort even gloried in -- usually without even a trace of irony.

Rich people endlessly indulging and spoiling themselves while at the same time bonding over the misfortunes of others is one of the uglier rituals in society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blarg, in a totally non-gay way, I really admire your insights. Awesome post.

Ulysses

06-05-2005, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why he should be in need of enlightening. People who chose to procreate under such circumstances are truly scum, no better than parents who beat, sexually abuse or murder their children.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Because he, like you, clearly lack an understanding of the challenges involved in getting oneself out of those circumstances.

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 11:00 PM

disjunction

06-05-2005, 11:08 PM

Being born poor in America is similar to being dealt a bad starting hand in Texas Hold'em, which you have to play.

Yeah, sure, an EXCEPTIONAL player might find a way to win with those cards, by isolating the right person, and maybe catching a card or two, but it's a hell of a lot easier to just be dealt AA, or hell, even 98s, to begin with.

Subfallen

06-05-2005, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of months ago I beat up a girl who was asking people on the street for money. She was young and seemed frightened and had a sign that explained she was lost in Detroit and had a child, though I didn't see it. And she needed money, for food and a bus ticket to Iowa. She had misspelled the word disabled on her sign. That's not the reason I beat the [censored] out of her, but she was too ugly to rape.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're scary.

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 11:11 PM

As an aside, anyone who knows that they have AIDS and has sex with anyone should be put in jail. The same thing should happen to mothers with AIDS who get pregnant. That is so evil.

partygirluk

06-05-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, anyone who knows that they have AIDS and has sex with anyone should be put in jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Presuming that you are talking about unprotected sex only, this is already the case in the U.K. - not so in the U.S?

A_C_Slater

06-05-2005, 11:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Being born poor in America is similar to being dealt a bad starting hand in Texas Hold'em, which you have to play.

Yeah, sure, an EXCEPTIONAL player might find a way to win with those cards, by isolating the right person, and maybe catching a card or two, but it's a hell of a lot easier to just be dealt AA, or hell, even 98s, to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Thread Hijack.)

What hand were you dealt?

I give myself T8s.

Subfallen

06-05-2005, 11:21 PM

75s, bottom of Group 6. And it's not close.

SpearsBritney

06-05-2005, 11:22 PM

J7o

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 11:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, anyone who knows that they have AIDS and has sex with anyone should be put in jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Presuming that you are talking about unprotected sex only, this is already the case in the U.K. - not so in the U.S?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not the case in the U.S. And there is also not a law against people with AIDS getting pregnant. There should be.

CallMeIshmael

06-05-2005, 11:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
J7o

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
T8s

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont you guys think that these are a tad low, given that a very significant portion of the world's population lives in wretched poverty?

I mean... perhaps by American standards, you could be dealt hands that bad and still be where you are. But, I would think, on the whole, those type of hands are almost never dealt to someone who has internet access right now.

Jakesta

06-05-2005, 11:36 PM

I was dealt KQs. A solid Group 2(I think?) hand, basically upper middle class. I feel like helping out the 94o's and 52s's in this country is a responsibility.

A_C_Slater

06-05-2005, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
J7o

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
T8s

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont you guys think that these are a tad low, given that a very significant portion of the world's population lives in wretched poverty?

I mean... perhaps by American standards, you could be dealt hands that bad and still be where you are. But, I would think, on the whole, those type of hands are almost never dealt to someone who has internet access right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was using American social standards. And I think T8s is a good hand. Lots of possibilites. But certainly I wasn't given a premium hand at birth.

EDIT: World standards probably pocket JJ.

REEDIT: No that's too good, QJs maybe.

SpearsBritney

06-05-2005, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
J7o

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
T8s

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont you guys think that these are a tad low, given that a very significant portion of the world's population lives in wretched poverty?

I mean... perhaps by American standards, you could be dealt hands that bad and still be where you are. But, I would think, on the whole, those type of hands are almost never dealt to someone who has internet access right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I thought J7o was a little high. I guess I'm an ingrateful prick.

ggbman

06-05-2005, 11:38 PM

Yeah good luck getting an 80k loan approved when you make $10 an hour working part time and your parents have to assets to co-sign with.

ChipWrecked

06-05-2005, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anytime a begger approaches me and you know they are going to ask you for money, well before they get a chance to ask me I ask them first if they have any money they can spare.
It stops them dead in their tracks and they don't know what the hell to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tell them sure, I have some money for them, but first I'd like to take a minute to discuss my personal Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. They never seem to want my money that badly.

jgorham

06-05-2005, 11:41 PM

This thread makes me sad.

Lawrence Ng

06-06-2005, 12:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is an ignorant thread to start. WHat about someone whose parents cannot afford to pay for college, and they cant afford it because their parents couldnt and they could never get a good job. Any good college these days is outrageously expensive, and would financially handicap any student for the nest decade at least. It's just ridiculous to make statements like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually this thread is anything but ignorant and Alobar brings up a subject that is of deep concern presented in North American culture today. I'm really enjoying this thread..

Lawrence

goofball

06-06-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what hand were you dealt

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ.

KK by world standards I think.

Willluck

06-06-2005, 12:20 AM

You don't make any sense. With Capitalism it is impossible for a lot of people not to be poor. How can every poor person be just stupid... You're living proof that rich people are just as stupid as people who are poor. Jesus! 99% of the money in the world is controlled by 1% of the population. Without the poor there are no rich.

bisonbison

06-06-2005, 12:26 AM

this thread is pretty dumb.

Arnfinn Madsen

06-06-2005, 12:28 AM

Have you ever heard of povery trap. Some people are actually so poor that they have no way out of it. Would you hire someone with dirty clothes?

Jakesta

06-06-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever heard of povery trap. Some people are actually so poor that they have no way out of it. Would you hire someone with dirty clothes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. What company is going to interview someone who wears a t-shirt with ripped and stained jeans?

Maybe the government should provide nice clothing for people to wear on job interviews. I don't know if it's feasible.

A_C_Slater

06-06-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't make any sense. With Capitalism it is impossible for a lot of people not to be poor. How can every poor person be just stupid... You're living proof that rich people are just as stupid as people who are poor. Jesus! 99% of the money in the world is controlled by 1% of the population. Without the poor there are no rich.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. The Illuminati. The bastards. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

ggbman

06-06-2005, 12:34 AM

Oh give me a break Lawrence, saying everyone in America is poor because they are lazy is ignorant no matter how you cut. If Alobar took time to specify his feelings or classify who besides children is expempt, that would be different, but as it stands the statement made to begin this thread was ignorant. People can go college, get an education, and then realize that the cost of their child's education is more then they make in a year. It's really not all that simple. Period.

Jakesta

06-06-2005, 12:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is an ignorant thread to start. WHat about someone whose parents cannot afford to pay for college, and they cant afford it because their parents couldnt and they could never get a good job. Any good college these days is outrageously expensive, and would financially handicap any student for the nest decade at least. It's just ridiculous to make statements like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually this thread is anything but ignorant and Alobar brings up a subject that is of deep concern presented in North American culture today. I'm really enjoying this thread..

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says Canadians get to have an opinion on this?

damaniac

06-06-2005, 12:38 AM

whodaman

06-06-2005, 12:41 AM

your being a pompous jerk.
Saying that the norm for a poor person is to be stupid and lazy is ridiculous.
I have a friend whose mom works 80+ hours a week and she is still poor because her father is no longer a part of their lives for elements not under their control. Her mom works all those hours so her kids can go to the best schools around because she doesn't want them to have to work as hard as she does.
You think my friends mom is stupid or lazy?
and don't tell me that she isn't the norm because there are 1000's more people who cannot work because of illness or injury that would starve to death if it weren't for some monetary aide from the government.
I am an 18 year old and one of my rolemodels growing up was a man who had a stroke in his mid 30's who recieved aide from the governemnt for the rest of his life because without it he would have nothing. Is he stupid or lazy? Do you think he deserves to starve to death?
I'm not saying that all poor people are simply down on their luck, but i certainly am contesting your statement that poor people are normally stupid and lazy.
Mike

Stuey

06-06-2005, 12:42 AM

I was going to say both sides of this argument could be right. Then I thought it was more likely both sides were wrong. Why are there only two sides?

Why do people attack/hate things they don't agree with?
I'm not talking about you Alobar, I mean the people that are attacking you. But it could apply to you also, although your use of the word seems more defensible.

I don't know much on this topic. I don't give money or my time to help poor people. I have never been poor myself either. I will give my money and my time to people I pity. Sometimes they happen to be poor people. But I don't do it to get them unpoor, as I never think that is the "problem" they need help with.

Hard to explain what I mean here. I watched the movie "The Jerk". And at the end when they built a big shack to live in and they all looked pretty happy to me, and poor. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

A_C_Slater

06-06-2005, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A couple of months ago I beat up a girl who was asking people on the street for money. She was young and seemed frightened and had a sign that explained she was lost in Detroit and had a child, though I didn't see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, AC is too small and puny to beat up a poor, malnourished girl.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is IIRC?

whodaman

06-06-2005, 12:54 AM

I hope you were trying to be sarcastic...
Yes colleges are supposed to help with financial aid but most colleges stick you with laons that you need cosigners for and when the sum is over 100,000$ in loans, college is no longer affordable.
Yes you could go to instate school and pay considerably less but having loans totaling 60,000$ and getting a degree from a weaker in state school really isn't that much better. You are going to be poor for the next 10 years no matter how hard you work unless you get extremely lucky.

mosch

06-06-2005, 12:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think charitable giving is bad solely because of the corruption within most charities and the fact that a portion of those who you physically give it to (panhandlers) won't do it to better themselves.

I actually have no proof to back either of those statements up, just what I've heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charity Navigator (http://www.charitynavigator.org/) , Charity Watch (http://www.charitywatch.org/) and a few other groups provide useful information on how much of your money goes to the alleged cause, how much is spent on administration, etc...

If you're giving without doing this kind of research, you're a sucker.

damaniac

06-06-2005, 12:56 AM

IIRC = If I remember correctly

A_C_Slater

06-06-2005, 01:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
IIRC = If I remember correctly

[/ QUOTE ]

AC was all valley wrestling champion. AC could easily handle a random street urchin.

irishken

06-06-2005, 01:02 AM

AA and it's not even close to anything else.

StacysMom

06-06-2005, 01:06 AM

Did the OP ever take a sociology or racial studies class? If he had he wouldnt have made such blatent statements. It is important to understand that socioeconomic barriers make it impossible for the avg poor person to escape poverty. While ther are exceptions, the norm will never me to rise above.

One has to consider centurys of discrimination in education, job market, and housing. My favorite analogy for the plite of a poor person is as follows.

If you are to look really closely as a bird cage, you will see a single wire. You can see the bird insinde and wonder why he is stuck there. He could easily fly on either side of that measily wire. However, if u take a step back and look at the whole situation, it becomes apparent that a seris of wires makes it impossible for the bird to escape.

OP is a perfect example of the fact that people of privelage, do not realize they have it. They take for granted, or even believe they deserve these privelages that many people do not have.

Take some time and think about what privelages you have, then compare them to the average person, it may give you more understanding. If you would like to pursue the topic so more I can refer you to some very interesting articles.

miajag81

06-06-2005, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]

What hand were you dealt?

[/ QUOTE ]

By US standards, AJs.

By world standards, KK.

Weatherhead03

06-06-2005, 01:19 AM

Which also brings in the lazyness issue...

ggbman

06-06-2005, 01:27 AM

[censored] Lawrence is from Canada? I wouldn't have even bothered responding if i knew this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jakesta

06-06-2005, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] Lawrence is from Canada? I wouldn't have even bothered responding if i knew this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and he's Asian, too, so he can't really relate to being poor. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

<font color="#FFFFFF">I'm joking</font>

blaze666

06-06-2005, 01:39 AM

are you talking about the kind of people who use ocean finance?(that is a british loan company, specificlly for stupid poor people, with a waaay over the top apr, of something like 12%) and watch the adverts and say 'eeh, kev, that looks like a well good idea, we get some money we do!' i would have to agree with you, people who are poor because they are stupid, and get themselves in debt, and then get into even more debt, and live in council houses, are very stupid. i hate them all.

and i think most [good] poker players are of above average intelligence.

Eihli

06-06-2005, 01:46 AM

Natural selection.

ChipWrecked

06-06-2005, 01:48 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/aksooted/troll.jpg

david050173

06-06-2005, 03:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason that we should help the poor is that most of them have children. I support lots of help for single mothers with children, because it's not their fault that their childrens' dads are total deadbeats.

I don't support help for drug addicts who refuse to get sober and get a job, for example, but lots of people do really need the help. And I don't mind paying taxes to help them because I may be down on my luck someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it is the mothers fault. They are the ones that choose to sleep with the dead beat dads and then choose to have the kids when their method of birth control failed. And to be fair to the dead beat dads, most of them don't have any resources to support thier kids.

06-06-2005, 03:07 AM

Poor women are the best. You can beat em till the cows come home and they never turn you in.

dibbs

06-06-2005, 03:48 AM

Peep "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America"
by Barbara Ehrenreich.

Not about the poorest of the poor but it made me feel like crap and made me think differently about a lot I take for granted.

Jakesta

06-06-2005, 03:54 AM

Good book, but it should have been written by someone who was actually poor.

Ehrenreich can't relate to what it feels like to be poor because she has always been rich. It's kind of insulting to poor people for her to do what she did, but the book is still worth reading.

Shaun

06-06-2005, 03:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think he deserves to starve to death?

[/ QUOTE ]

As Clint Eastwood once said "Deserve's got nothin to do with it"...

siccjay

06-06-2005, 04:00 AM

I'll reply to the guy making troll comments just because I know he is pissed that no one is paying attention to him.

Alobar, I know what you mean with this post but you worded it horribly. It's the people that are too worthless to do something with their situation. Sadly, it's most of them they don't attempt to change their way of life. It's the harsh truth. Some people would rather keep having babies so they can have a little extra welfare money then to get a good job and better themselves and their family.

If you don't agree with this then you must not live in a big city.

Shaun

06-06-2005, 04:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Did the OP ever take a sociology or racial studies class? If he had he wouldnt have made such blatent statements.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. It's clear that the original poster has not been properly indoctrinated by the University system....

LargeCents

06-06-2005, 04:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Lets see, weve got no money and we live in a shity house, what should we buy? oooo, I know, lets spend $20 on beer.

[/ QUOTE ]

It actually makes sense, when you've lived it.

[ QUOTE ]
Lets see, if I bought ingredients and cooked food we could save money and use it for things we need, but naah, I cant be troubled with that, Im gunna buy these $5 frozen pizzas instead. oh hey, cookies!

[/ QUOTE ]

You just got done working a triple shift, you've got a bunch of crying kids and you just want to go home and go to sleep. Yeah, nutrition is your top priority right now.

Next time you see a bum on the street, treat him/her like a human first. Talk to them, see what their story really is. I have no respect for panhandlers either, just as I have no respect for corporate insiders who are morally bankrupt despite being financially bankrolled in ways I can never even imagine. At least the bum, I can look them in the eye and see what their soul is "really" saying to me. The real crooks are hiding in gated posh neighborhoods, to keep "me" away from them, I guess. Who do I hate more? Who is less human?

Me:
World standards: J8o
U.S. Standards: 52s

JDErickson

06-06-2005, 04:59 AM

Just a story about poor children.

My wife worked at a convenience store for a while. One day a "lady" came in with a small child in only a diaper on her hip.

The lady goes over to the beer cooler and picks up a 6 pack, walks to the counter and asks for a box of smokes while pulling the changeout of her pocket to pay for it.

The child sees a banana on the counter and reaches for it. The mother slaps her hand and says "we can't afford a banana".

sigh

Jakesta

06-06-2005, 04:59 AM

Great post.

I think sometimes people on here forget that not everyone is a 22 year old single male who plays poker for a living. Some people are 35 years old, work two jobs, and have 3 kids at home. Lecturing them about the food they buy is uncalled for.

ChipWrecked

06-06-2005, 09:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Actually it is the mothers fault. They are the ones that choose to sleep with the dead beat dads

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn straight. Stupid bitches shouldn't be spreading their legs every time some dude comes around with a bottle of Thunderbird on welfare check day.

Charlemagne

06-06-2005, 10:29 AM

Your choice of words might be a little ‘off’, but apart from that…

I really don’t have any sympathy at all for someone who’s poor because of his or her own fault. I wont give money to a homeless guy on the street with an empty cup in his hand. (If he’d sing me a song it would be a different story, that goes without saying.) The other day I’m watching TV and I see this couple being poor and in debt, and it turns out the woman is a shoe-addict and has over 80 pairs. Maybe that’s not the only reason of them being poor (probably not), but that doesn’t matter, cause its stupid! Those people deserve to be poor, or maybe somebody should smack some sense into them (mom and dad, this is your cue), but why should we (everybody else) pay taxes to help them out?
By the way, I live in the Netherlands, and believe me, its way worse here, I honestly believe it is impossible to die of poverty here even if you tried. We pay way higher taxes here. Welfare is so ‘good’ it can even be a step down to get a (kinda crappy) job instead of staying lazy. And I don’t mean because of the loss of time, but purely because you might make less money then you’d get in welfare and government subsidies on for instance; rent.

Los Feliz Slim

06-06-2005, 10:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What hand were you dealt?

[/ QUOTE ]

The "starting hand" analogy doesn't withstand even the briefest scrutiny. You've got a much better chance with the worst starting hand in hold `em (72o for the sake of the argument) than you do in life (homelessness, poverty, abuse, etc etc etc). 72o at least stands a chance of flopping two pair against AA, but a child born to homeless alcoholics has almost zero chance whatsoever of getting where a wealthy heir STARTS. The problem I have with the comparison is that one could say "yeah, but if you play that 72o well you can beat the AA." Not true in life.

JackThree

06-06-2005, 11:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Those people deserve to be poor, or maybe somebody should smack some sense into them (mom and dad, this is your cue), but why should we (everybody else) pay taxes to help them out?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to, you choose to, the government has figured this out(which likely means the majority of the population has as well), and is thinking on a much higher level than "it's their own fault if their poor".

As long as people do not know they have a choice, they do not have one. If people's consciousness is not raised to a level where they become self-aware, it is nearly impossible to change a subconscious motivation.
Example:
Take the scenario of a man who cannot hold a job because he is habitually late. He doesn't have a problem waking up, he doesn't have a problem going to bed at night, he just has a problem getting ready on time and getting out the door. He decides to read a few more posts, or he decides he can take longer in the shower and speed to be on time. "Sometimes the boss isn't there until later, I can lay here a couple more minutes" Thoughts like these likely are going through his head.

Now we can say(most of us): This is stupid, he just needs to get off his ass and go to work, stop screwing around. It's his own fault because he's just not DOING it.

But there is something we are overlooking by saying this, he thinks these ridiculous rationalizations are completely reasonable, he doesn't think they're stupid. Why? Who knows, but 99% of the time, he is a victim of circumstance.

Almost everything you do is done in your subconscious.
This guy is living on what he has learned, this has been taught to him, he has a very valid reason. Poor people have a very valid reason for being poor, they're not stupid(although some can be), they are trapped in a level of consciousness that does not permit enough self-awareness to change the subconscious that controls them.

Another example: Driving, almost every one of you has driven a long distance and been thinking about something and then realized you just drove 20 miles on the interstate and don't remember a moment of the trip. That's because you've taught your subconscious(or your parents) how to drive.

Referring to the previous example of the guy who is late for work, he is most likely afraid of the situation at work and is at the same time emotionally dead so he does not recognize it, stupid rationalizations sound good to him because that's what his mind DOES. His mind tries to subvert emotions by creating irrational situations that keep him from experiencing what he doesn't even know he is afraid of.

If people knew they could make a difference in their lives, AND thought their lives meant something, then they WOULD.
Have sympathy for victims of circumstance, if you can.

One of my specific problems I had before I became okay: I would never take showers. Why? Because I never saw it as a useful thing, it was just something to avoid punishment from my parents. After I moved out, hell why should I take showers? So I never did. But all my friends were like "You don't need to think about it just take a damn shower, it's not hard just DO it." And I'm like... why? And they're like "because". The reason they do it is because it is programmed into their subconscious by their parents.

For me it was not. I had to teach myself how to take care of myself, my thoughts started out as "God wants me to take a shower because He loves me, so I will take a shower." then it got to "I love myself because God loves me, I will take a shower for me" And then finally it just became internal and now I just DO it, I no longer have to think about it.

Note: getting to where I could say to myself "I will do this because reason1, reason2, reason3" was insanely difficult.

So we are paying taxes to help them because they are unable to help themselves. Laziness and stupidity has nothing(if little) to do with it.

M2d

06-06-2005, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The "starting hand" analogy doesn't withstand even the briefest scrutiny. You've got a much better chance with the worst starting hand in hold `em (72o for the sake of the argument) than you do in life (homelessness, poverty, abuse, etc etc etc). 72o at least stands a chance of flopping two pair against AA, but a child born to homeless alcoholics has almost zero chance whatsoever of getting where a wealthy heir STARTS. The problem I have with the comparison is that one could say "yeah, but if you play that 72o well you can beat the AA." Not true in life.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about: I was dealth 7-2 off, but a seven was exposed by the dealer and another 7-2 off was mucked face up in front of me.

superleeds

06-06-2005, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
America isnt divided into two camps "rich" and "poor"

[/ QUOTE ]

Not yet

Bataglin

06-06-2005, 11:53 AM

I hope for your sake that you are kidding, and trying to be kind of funny (which fail).

If not... wow, ignorance on the highest level.

morgant

06-06-2005, 12:04 PM

a simple twist of fate and you would be these people you hate.

rhyme not intended

Kailia Marie

06-06-2005, 12:15 PM

Hi Alobar,

Before I read any of the responses in this thread, I just wanted to tell you a part of my story. In 1982, my parents somehow managed to immigrate to the U.S. when I was 10 months old. Unable to speak English very well and lacking any white collar skills, my father had to work two jobs each paying mininum wage while my mother stayed home to nurse me. Our low income housing had problems with molding on the wall and I became very ill and my father's wages were not enough to keep a roof over our heads, feed us, and pay for doctor expenses. Had it not been for kind neighbors, who themselves were not very wealthy, helping us out, I would have probably died as an infant.

My father died when I was five years old and my mother was left alone to care for me and unlike my father she was not able to work more than one job. Had it not been for kind neighbors (and welfare), things could have gotten real bad for us.

I don't think any two people were as honest, hard working, and loving as my parents. Maybe I'm a little biased, but I certainly feel that we "deserved" a little bit of help or at least a little bit of empathy, and without it we simply couldn't have survived. So I take a little offense when I read comments like "the poor should be able to help themselves out" or "the poor are poor because they don't work hard enough" or other such generalizations. There are plenty of poor people out there who genuinely cannot help from being poor. Sorry for the rant.

/images/graemlins/heart.gifKailia