I find myself doing a lot of limping in EP with big aces early on.

[elonkra]

I mix in some raises, and this is position-dependent, of course. What's a good mix, if this isn't an inherently bad thing to do? I'm talking AQ/AK here (I'm almost always folding AJ).

[pergesu]

Limping encourages more limping, so there's a good chance more people will be limping in. You don't want to play big cards in multiway pots. Also, when someone raises behind you, you've got no idea where you stand. If you raise and get reraised, you can either dump it or proceed cautiously. Lastly, when you open with a raise, a continuation bet will win far more often when you miss. You'll have fewer opponents to begin, but you showed strength before the flop, so if your opponents missed as well, they'll be more likely to lay their hands down.

[Shilly]

I raise 4xBB with AK and AQ in early position (in level 1, at least).

[DasLeben]

I raise AK 3-4xBB (more if there are limpers) from any position, even in the earlier levels. I limp AQ most of the time, because well, it's death.

[Phill S]

Only EP limping i do is AA, KK and if the table is aggressive QQ.

This is all about the limp-reraise. Limping for disguise sometimes works too but it can get you in trouble; be prepared to fold to heavy action on a board with two or more broadway cards.

Although not related exactly to the thread, this is the oppsitie of why i only flat call raises in mid to late position with big pairs, this time you want the disguise and you want them to take control - the limp reraise is all about taking control whilst out of position.

Dont do this with AK and the like. If raised you dont know where you are, and if not, you still dont know where you are.

Poker is about taking risks, but some are too far out there for my liking.

Phill

[elonkra]

So are you saying never limp w/AK and the like? I recall reading lots of posts here advocating limping w/AK early on, e.g., for double-up-vs.-fish value w/TPTK. There's obviously an implied assumption that you can get away from it, when necessary. I think I'm almost certainly limping too much, but I'm not yet convinced that it's a bad move to mix in some limps. I am certainly open-minded about this though.

[pergesu]

Raising is not going to knock out the donks with Ax, so you still have double up value when you hit TPTK. I hate playing hands out of position, against many opponents, with no information about their hands.

[RobGW]

Why even play AQ then? Especially with all these fish who will only play AK or better?

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is not going to knock out the donks with Ax, so you still have double up value when you hit TPTK. I hate playing hands out of position, against many opponents, with no information about their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll concede that you guys are probably right, but I'd love to see someone argue the other side on this, assuming there is a sensible one. Wish I could remember the earlier threads I've seen by the limp and limp-call/limp-raise advocates, or who those advocates were. Seems like they were relatively respected posters. In any case, I appreciate the feedback.

[Karak567]

Dan Harrington talks about why limping with big hands in EP or behind other limpers can sometimes hurt.

He calls this the "umbrella effect." As the limping continues, the pot odds are getting better and better for the players who still have yet to act in LP.

Next thing you know you might have a party pot with your AK in EP.

Maybe this is good in a MTT with big blinds, but at a SNG where there are a lot of fishy players, I don't advocate limping big hands unless you are 150 % sure there will be a raise behind you.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
Why even play AQ then? Especially with all these fish who will only play AK or better?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pretty much joking about how AQ is death (it's really only "maim" status). I tend to limp it up front on a passive table to see if I can't tag a nice flop for cheap. From LP, I'll raise.

I dunno if that's very optimal, but I tend to play fairly weak-tight in early blind levels to conserve chips.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising is not going to knock out the donks with Ax, so you still have double up value when you hit TPTK. I hate playing hands out of position, against many opponents, with no information about their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll concede that you guys are probably right, but I'd love to see someone argue the other side on this, assuming there is a sensible one. Wish I could remember the earlier threads I've seen by the limp and limp-call/limp-raise advocates, or who those advocates were. Seems like they were relatively respected posters. In any case, I appreciate the feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main benefit with limping with AQ in level one is that if you hit top pair, people will think their AJ/AT are good since no one raised. And since most people don't limp with AK you can get away from your hand if someone has AK.

Now I am not arguing that limping gives me the most EV in level one, but it definately has a lower risk element compared to raising.

The above is assuming a 800 starting chip structure.

[RobGW]

No, I thought you were serious. lol. Anyways, yeah limping in EP and raising in LP is ususally how I play it too. I was just trying to point out that there is no reason to be scared of AQ when most of these fools will cold call or even raise with Ax. Now calling a raise with AQ can be tricky. But in an unraised pot I'm playing AQ everytime. Somitmes aggressively and sometimes not.

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising is not going to knock out the donks with Ax, so you still have double up value when you hit TPTK. I hate playing hands out of position, against many opponents, with no information about their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll concede that you guys are probably right, but I'd love to see someone argue the other side on this, assuming there is a sensible one. Wish I could remember the earlier threads I've seen by the limp and limp-call/limp-raise advocates, or who those advocates were. Seems like they were relatively respected posters. In any case, I appreciate the feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main benefit with limping with AQ in level one is that if you hit top pair, people will think their AJ/AT are good since no one raised. And since most people don't limp with AK you can get away from your hand if someone has AK.

Now I am not arguing that limping gives me the most EV in level one, but it definately has a lower risk element compared to raising.

The above is assuming a 800 starting chip structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I'm revealing my own ignorance here, but how does a 1500 starting chip structure change your analysis?

[Phill S]

Common theory around here says the more chips you have the more hands you can play.

Common theory is wrong.

Phill

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
Common theory around here says the more chips you have the more hands you can play.

Common theory is wrong.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, and maybe I'm just a little slow today, but are you saying you'd be more or less apt to limp rather than raise in the situations I've described w/a 1500 chipstack? Maybe you're not even taking a position on this, but I'm still a little confused by your "above is assuming an 800 chipstack" qualification.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Common theory around here says the more chips you have the more hands you can play.

Common theory is wrong.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, and maybe I'm just a little slow today, but are you saying you'd be more or less apt to limp rather than raise in the situations I've described w/a 1500 chipstack? Maybe you're not even taking a position on this, but I'm still a little confused by your "above is assuming an 800 chipstack" qualification.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more chips/slower escalation of blinds the less a bad pot early on hurts your folding equity later on.

Getting fancy early for many chips with only 800 starting chips may make levels 3-4-5 much harder to play. And that is where Party SnGs are decided.

[freemoney]

theres times when limping AK is great from up front, I am starting with 1000 chips so say you are at about 800 and the blinds are 25/50, it not desperation mode but you gotta make a move soon. if you raise here to say 200 you are committing yourself and letting AJ and AQ fold, by limping you will see bigger stacks raise in LP with AT or AJ, then you can push back all in. if everyone limps either you hit or you dont. if the guy in LP raises and then when you go all in he shows AA its irrelevant b/c either way u were getting all in but this way encourages other hands to raise behind. Ax will limp behind and if they hit the ace also you can double up or win a big pot through that. also the blinds arent so large that you can afford to lose 50 if you limp and miss.

[Moonsugar]

[ QUOTE ]
Only EP limping i do is AA, KK and if the table is aggressive QQ.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, it is real hard to put you on a hand then when you limp.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only EP limping i do is AA, KK and if the table is aggressive QQ.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, it is real hard to put you on a hand then when you limp.

[/ QUOTE ]
Depending on limits, that doesn't matter one bit. I'm lucky to get AA and KK in the same tourney, and I don't play the same players often enough for them to get reads on me. Even if I did, I would imagine most of them don't take notes, so it's moot.

When you don't play people enough for them to figure you out, "image" plays drop in value, and there's no need to mix things up. Standard play will win a lot of $$.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only EP limping i do is AA, KK and if the table is aggressive QQ.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, it is real hard to put you on a hand then when you limp.

[/ QUOTE ]
Depending on limits, that doesn't matter one bit. I'm lucky to get AA and KK in the same tourney, and I don't play the same players often enough for them to get reads on me. Even if I did, I would imagine most of them don't take notes, so it's moot.

When you don't play people enough for them to figure you out, "image" plays drop in value, and there's no need to mix things up. Standard play will win a lot of $$.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

If i make it to higher levels, a lot of these plays would need removing (at least as far as mixing it up a bit), but at the 20s and 30s that i play, you dont need to think at a high level at all with your play.

To give an example, in one day less than a week ago i played someone twice. He limped KT and AK in those two times, each time i made a raise LP, each time he came over the top, each time he saw AA.

Ive also made a limp re-raise twice in a few games, big hands early, same play, same guys - not once did they respect my play.

They are fish for a reason.

Phill