10/20 PS Hand #2

[theBruiser500]

Opponent is LAG, not crazy but not a good LAG, not a big fish, calls too much. In retrospect I like just folding preflop because of the way he plays but I see AJo on PS and can't resist the urge to raise it preflop. Thoughts on turn and river?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($3421)
Button ($160)
SB ($856)
BB ($1980)
UTG ($2458)
UTG+1 ($2960)
Hero ($2316)
MP2 ($2403)
MP3 ($1960)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $100</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, UTG calls $80.

Flop: ($230) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $180</font>, UTG calls $180.

Turn: ($590) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($590) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2036 (All-In)</font>

[thabadguy]

I like pf ,flop, turn check is good against lag too. River overbet..is something i would do, and so it probably is not what most other posters would agree to.
All in All, i like it.

[captZEEbo1]

I like folding preflop. River bet won't get called by much I don't think. It really looks like you were worried about flush or something and filled up and now are trying to represent a bluff. I think opponent is able to get away from trip aces or flush here, unless you've gotten out of line before.

River I think a pot bet might be better? Where a loan ace could easily call. His flop call can easily be like K/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I think that hand might be able to call a river bet too.

So I don't know how I feel about the turn check. Do you plan on calling any river bet from him? You might be missing out on value from a Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif draw.

[chuddo]

i see zero value in the river push. unless you decide to start making 4x pot river pushes in pots where you have been checked to on every street, which is probably 'not a good idea'.

nothing that checked to you on the river after the turn was checked through is giving you action.

he can't even have a hand like Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif that flopped the nuts and slowplayed himself into a loss, because you have the J.

are you praying he makes a donk call with AQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif?

[cwl]

i would think about checking the flop unless he is not the type to often fire a bet on the turn with his relatively hopeless hands. the combo benefits of some pot control and inducing action from his awful hands look kind of appealing to me.

on the river this doesnt look like a great spot for the overbet unless he is worse than you make him sound or your image is different than i would expect it to be. his play has convinced me he actually has a pretty weak hand and i think id try to give him an easier call. i guess he could have something like Ax and be planning to check/call expecting to split or catch a bluff but will he really call this big a bet with Ax? if he had bet out on the river, even relatively small, id like the overbet more because then it would look a bit more likely that he had something like a slowplayed flush that he might have a harder time letting go.

[augie00]

The turn is fine I think, as long as you were planning on check/calling the river. If you think your hand is best on the turn, you should bet it. Obviously that changes since you improved on the river, but yeah. You understand.

I probably would have bet between $400 and $500 on the river, because I would be looking for a call. I think he would have bet AK on the river if he had it. Or at least raised the flop.

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
as long as you were planning on check/calling the river

[/ QUOTE ]

If he checks again and a complete blank hits, I think value betting two pair on river would be good.

[JaBlue]

I don't understand the river overbet.

What are you trying to represent, and what do you think he'll call with, and how often are you doing this without a hand?

[theBruiser500]

okay CWL i agree with you again about the river play. i was upset i checked the turn and he didn't bet the river was hoping i could make my mistake go away by getting lucky and stacking him anyway. he folded, i asked what he had he said Ax like you suggest which he would have called a little less than pot bet with.

the reason for flop play is because i think he'll makea loose flop call here. think it's good vs. this player. the turn was interesting i though, spent a lot of time in the hand thinking about it. if he c/r me there i wouldn't be surprised to see a flush or AK. what do you think about turn play?

[cwl]

the turn play seemed ok to me, which is not to say betting would have been bad, but neither option jumped out at me as being obviously better. if he has Ax unless you think you can rope him into calling both turn and river checking seems ok because are only getting one more bet out of him regardless and you dont risk the raise. ideally, if i was going to bet the turn i would probably want to bet fairly weakly on the turn and river to make it easy for him to call off his money one small bet at a time with a basically dead hand like Ax. the fact that i wouldnt want to make that big a turn bet anyway argues a bit for the turn check since id really hate to get checkraised because i reopoened the betting just to squeeze a small bet out of him. this also isnt really a spot where knowing what his checkraise means helps a whole lot cause your almost certainly drawing pretty live.

i dont think his willingness to make a loose call on the flop necessarily makes the flop bet right. if your flop/turn plan, barring a great turn card, is to bet the flop and check the turn i think its a little better with your hand to check the flop. i think you get the same loose call on the turn you would have gotten on the flop and you open the door to getting a little money from a hopeless hand as well if he stabs at it. i guess my point here isnt that i think checking the flop is overwhelmingly better, just that it could still be better even if your opponent is pretty willing to call loosely on the flop. to some extent the flop decision is dependant on other aspects of your game. if your looking for decent flops where you have a reasonable hand where checking is a good alternative then i think this is one, if your not then thats ok too. i may be looking at it this way because i raise a lot pre-flop and dont really feel like rampantly firing continuation bets out there with all the junk i end up with so i end up needing to check some reasonable hands as well to balance out for when im not following through on the flop.

[Blackjack]

This hand seems to go way above my fetal understanding of NL and meta game stuff.. or even basics of NL but I don't see how the hell anyone could ever call that overbet on the river!?!

Blackjack

[Popinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand seems to go way above my fetal understanding of NL and meta game stuff.. or even basics of NL but I don't see how the hell anyone could ever call that overbet on the river!?!

Blackjack

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why it's so bad. But then again all it takes sometimes is a person on tilt and one click of the mouse.

[piki]

gotta bet that turn

[NickPoker]

If I was the villain, I would put Hero on one of 2 things:
1. Full House AK or AJ
2. or Bluff at a spade draw, I would rule out spades.

So if Bruiser can convice him that it is #2 he may get a call sometimes. I guess you have to calculate how many times he will call, and compare it to how much you can suck out of him when he has spades or AQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Bruiser, is there any chance he would play AK like this, it doesn't look like AK, just thought I would ask.