3/6 JTs - GAMBOOOL

[mannika]

Okay, no more hand posts today, I promise. Bet on the flop was in hopes CO would raise and narrow the field, thus cleaning my J/T outs.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (28.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (17.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (24.66 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 26.66 BB

[cold_cash]

Your pre-flop play isn't something I would do, but I'm not intelligent enough about such matters to comment on it.

I think your flop bet is bad though.

[pyroponic]

Turn call?

[New001]

What J or T that beats you isn't going to call getting &gt; 15-1 on the flop?

[pokerstudAA]

Preflop seems decent if you have 7-8 people calling along and are building a huge pot with a monster drawing hand. TJs is winning more than its fair share here. Except you dont really need to do that here...the pot is already going to be big and multiway. Most money is made on the flop with this hand after catching a draw. That said - I do this preflop sometimes also. /images/graemlins/smile.gif [that certainly does not mean its correct]


But I think checking this ugly flop is better - if it comes back to you for 1 SB call it - otherwise fold. The board missed you completely - no draws no pairs no nothing....big pot no hand. Even if you catch the T or J - does the CO have a big pair? You have nothing to bet with/protect here.

Reraising here cost you an extra 3BB in this hand - it tied you to the hand after you missed the flop completely.

[mannika]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop seems decent if you have 7-8 people calling along and are building a huge pot with a monster drawing hand... Except you dont really need to do that here...the pot is already going to be big and multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then when is it okay to do this? It seems as if you are contradicting yourself here in your requirements for raising for value preflop with a drawing hand.

On the flop side, I think I was just staying in a bit too long with some of my hands today, usually I'm the other way around.

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop seems decent if you have 7-8 people calling along and are building a huge pot with a monster drawing hand... Except you dont really need to do that here...the pot is already going to be big and multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then when is it okay to do this? It seems as if you are contradicting yourself here in your requirements for raising for value preflop with a drawing hand.

On the flop side, I think I was just staying in a bit too long with some of my hands today, usually I'm the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]


Raising with speculative hands before the flop...

1. Encourages people to stay until the more expensive later streets with marginal hands and weak draws

2. and can make seeing the flop, turn, and river with speculative hands very expensive


#1 is good obviously but #2 is very bad. It's really a tradeoff and you should decide which one outweighs the other given a certain situation. Considering the number of people in the pot, the strength of your hand, and your relative position to the preflop raiser I would probably 3-bet here also.

Be prepared to dump the hand frequently as it will miss many times (although hit much more than other speculative hands). Just calling would be more than fine here as well, but with each option it is important to play the hand corectly after the flop.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising with speculative hands before the flop...

1. Encourages people to stay until the more expensive later streets with marginal hands and weak draws

2. and can make seeing the flop, turn, and river with speculative hands very expensive


#1 is good obviously but #2 is very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
When you flop a draw with T9s you're seing the river most often, no matter what's the size of the pot is. I don't see #2 as "very bad". On the flop we like much money into the pot when we flop oesd and flush draws. I don't think the turn (or flop) aggression from the other players will increase by much just because the size of the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Considering the number of people in the pot, the strength of your hand, and your relative position to the preflop raiser I would probably 3-bet here also.

[/ QUOTE ]
How does the relative position to the preflop raiser make a 3-bet better? We often flop a strong draw and in that case we want to trap the field. By 3-betting we're often giving up that oppurtunity since unless the preflop raiser also caps we can't count on him betting the flop unless he caps preflop. I still like the 3-bet though.

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
When you flop a draw with T9s you're seing the river most often, no matter what's the size of the pot is. I don't see #2 as "very bad".

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me reiterate. My original post just said seeing the flop, i'm not sure why I changed it to flop, turn, and river. The most important part is the price you pay to see the flop. Like I said, speculative hands will miss very often, even with a hand as strong as JTs. Most of the time it is better to see a flop with hands like 77 or 98s for one bet as opposed to three or four.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop we like much money into the pot when we flop oesd and flush draws. I don't think the turn (or flop) aggression from the other players will increase by much just because the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

From my experience, average aggression increases dramatically if the pot is very large since people will protect/value bet their hands more fiercely. I also think that people lower their standards for betting/raising, for example a fish that flopped a decent hand may just call in a small pot but raise/reraise/check-raise in a large one.

None of this is to say I wouldn't 3-bet JTs here, because I most definately would. I was just mentioning the fact that there is DEFINATELY a tradeoff between #1 in my previous reply and #2.

[ QUOTE ]
When you flop a draw with T9s you're seing the river most often, no matter what's the size of the pot is. I don't see #2 as "very bad". On the flop we like much money into the pot when we flop oesd and flush draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that we're going to fifth street if we flop a monster draw like an OESD or flush draw. But how often do we flop draws like this? More often I think we'll flop gutshots, middle pair, backdoor flush draws, etc. I doubt many of you guys fold these type of marginal draws in a large, multiway pot, but don't be surprised if you get trapped for 3-4 bets with a draw like this. Our effective odds a lot of the times is much lower than the pot odds we think we're getting at the time.

[ QUOTE ]
How does the relative position to the preflop raiser make a 3-bet better? We often flop a strong draw and in that case we want to trap the field. By 3-betting we're often giving up that oppurtunity since unless the preflop raiser also caps we can't count on him betting the flop unless he caps preflop. I still like the 3-bet though.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's raising when there's 7-8 limpers, he most likely has a hand worth capping. Even if he doesn't, a lot of the times he'll go ahead and cap it anyways in an attempt to thin the field. Additionally, he'd be more inclined to cap since he'd think your limp-reraise was bullshit since you'd probably raise a 3-betting hand the first time around from your position given the number of limpers before you.

In regards to the relative position to the preflop raiser,
all I said is that it's a factor I consider but I never said it was a huge factor. There are many other factors to consider in addition to this one. In this particular hand we are in favorable position because since everyone is already in for two bets, there's little chance that people are going to fold whether or not the original raiser is going to cap. For obvious reasons, we would probably not try this if we were SB or UTG in this hand. Also, sitting on the right and close to this person will give us the highest chance of trapping the field for many bets after the flop because this person will probably remain agressive on the flop. We can assume this because he has positon, and for all the things I just said in the preceding paragraph.

This relative position also gives us a lot of options after the flop, as we could check/raise if it's checked to the perflop raiser; raise/reraise if someone from EP bets; or call/reraise if someone from MP bets we we think someone will raise after we call (which will happen most of the time).

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time it is better to see a flop with hands like 77 or 98s for one bet as opposed to three or four.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. With 8 opponents that changes a bit though. Since you'll both have the oppurtunity to push an edge AND tie players to the flop which is a good thing since you mainly play this hand to make monsters.


[ QUOTE ]
From my experience, average aggression increases dramatically if the pot is very large since people will protect/value bet their hands more fiercely. I also think that people lower their standards for betting/raising, for example a fish that flopped a decent hand may just call in a small pot but raise/reraise/check-raise in a large one.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree to some point, but I think the biggest reason for people getting aggressive in big pots is the fact that big pots occur when big hands are being played. It's easier to play a hand like JTs postflop if the pot is enormous.


[ QUOTE ]
I agree that we're going to fifth street if we flop a monster draw like an OESD or flush draw. But how often do we flop draws like this? More often I think we'll flop gutshots, middle pair, backdoor flush draws, etc. I doubt many of you guys fold these type of marginal draws in a large, multiway pot, but don't be surprised if you get trapped for 3-4 bets with a draw like this. Our effective odds a lot of the times is much lower than the pot odds we think we're getting at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
We flop an oesd/made straight ~11% and flush/flush draw ~12% of the time. Sometimes these hands "collide" (ie we flop both an oesd and flush draw at the same time), but we hit this flop big at least 20% of the time. Add to that the times we get lucky and flop FH/trips/2-pair. I won't fold a gut-shot/pair often on the flop, but that doesn't matter much since we hit the flop big often.


[ QUOTE ]
None of this is to say I wouldn't 3-bet JTs here, because I most definately would. I was just mentioning the fact that there is DEFINATELY a tradeoff between #1 in my reply and #2.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, but as said I don't think #2 is a big factor.

Regarding the relative position, I thought you were saying we raised preflop b/c we will have a good relative position on the flop. Now I understand you mean we have a good relative position preflop, which I agree with. The relative position on the flop doesn't matter much since the pot is huge and we don't mind if PFR faces the field with 2 cold. Since PFR could be raising and capping a speculative hand we probably should not check/raise the flop if we hit the flop, since he'll be checking through pretty often and we don't mind him raising.

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. With 8 opponents that changes a bit though. Since you'll both have the oppurtunity to push an edge AND tie players to the flop which is a good thing since you mainly play this hand to make monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definately. When there is this many people in the pot, building the pot preflop with speculative hands is much more attractive. In this example hand, the conditions were nearly perfect. I doubt that i'd 3-bet here though with weaker drawing hands such as 75s or 66.

[ QUOTE ]
We flop an oesd/made straight ~11% and flush/flush draw ~12% of the time. Sometimes these hands "collide" (ie we flop both an oesd and flush draw at the same time), but we hit this flop big at least 20% of the time. Add to that the times we get lucky and flop FH/trips/2-pair. I won't fold a gut-shot/pair often on the flop, but that doesn't matter much since we hit the flop big often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. That is why i'm also 3-betting JTs here almost 100% of the time. The original poster wanted to know when it's okay to jam the pot with spectulative hands in general. Since with most speculative hands we're flopping much weaker hands (two-pair which could get counterfeited or could make someone else a straight, drawing to non-nut straights and flushes), it's probably better than to call than to reraise here a lot of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree to some point, but I think the biggest reason for people getting aggressive in big pots is the fact that big pots occur when big hands are being played. It's easier to play a hand like JTs postflop if the pot is enormous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think people are more agressive because both bigger hands are being played, AND they want to win an enormous pot (whether that's pushing a good but not great hand harder than usual or trying to raise people out).

I disagree that JTs is easier to play in an enormous pot. I think it's much easier to play it in a smaller pot because the postflop action will be more predictable, most of your outs will be good, and there are less people in contention for the pot. To prove my point, I think the hand that was posted was played incorrectly postflop because maybe the decisions were not as clear after the flop in such a huge pot.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but as said I don't think #2 is a big factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the price we pay to take additional cards on the flop and turn are not real important. I think, however, that what we pay to see the flop is. I'll definately tell you that with most drawing hands I want to see the flop for as cheaply as possible.

With 8 people seeing the flop, #2 is not that big of a factor. With only 5 people seeing the flop, #2 is more of an issue because I definately want to see the flop for one bet as opposed to three of four. Also with less opponents the pot will be smaller so paying less to draw would also be preferred to for example, paying four bets to draw to a flush on the turn if the field gets narrowed to three.

Which leads to what I said earlier:

[ QUOTE ]

Considering the number of people in the pot, the strength of your hand, and your relative position to the preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these are some of the more important varibles to consider. The relative postion to the preflop raiser is probably the most important with these hands before the flop. Being in late-middle/late position is also important, not just because you know whether playing these hands are worth it before the flop, but it's much better to be in position with these hands after the flop then being in EP.

The most important thing probably is how many people are in the pot. But I definately think there's a tradeoff when making the preflop decisions. For example, with a hand like JTs with 8 people #1 (tying people to the pot) is more important than #2 (the cost to play the hand). But if I have 64s or 44 with 5 opponents, i'll probably be more concerned with how much it's going to cost preflop as opposed to tying people to the pot. If I have 77 or 86s with 6 opponents, the difference between #1 and #2 is more blurred so it could go either way.

Sorry for writing a book on this! The point I was trying to make with the poster's question:

[ QUOTE ]
Then when is it okay to do this? It seems as if you are contradicting yourself here in your requirements for raising for value preflop with a drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

There may be no contradiction, it really depends on the situation. I just wanted to note some of the things you should consider before deciding which play to make. Of course this doesn't even touch on what to do postflop after reraising preflop, which is an entirely different (and more complex) issue.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree that JTs is easier to play in an enormous pot. I think it's much easier to play it in a smaller pot because the postflop action will be more predictable, most of your outs will be good, and there are less people in contention for the pot. To prove my point, I think the hand that was posted was played incorrectly postflop because maybe the decisions were not as clear after the flop in such a huge pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're definately wrong about this. Making a mistake playing a gut-shot/pair is close to impossible in a ~29 SB pot. The flop bet might be wrong, but it's only a tiny mistake and in this case it didn't lead to a bad flop play (since he would have called 1SB on the flop anyway, if it had gotten raised the mistake still would have been tiny, I'm not being result oriented here).

[ QUOTE ]
The most important thing probably is how many people are in the pot. But I definately think there's a tradeoff when making the preflop decisions. For example, with a hand like JTs with 8 people #1 (tying people to the pot) is more important than #2 (the cost to play the hand).

[/ QUOTE ]
The cost of raising this hand is none. If you have an equity edge you're gaining by raising here (and you have). It costs you to pay multiple bets preflop with JTs only when you need to count implied odds to make a profit playing it. Sometimes we raise ourself when we don't have an edge b/c we want position or increase our implied odds.

In this case where we have an edge a raise increase our implied odds AND we gain by pushing an edge.

[RoyalLance]

I'm don't play much limit hold'em, but I have to say that your play is questionable pre-flop. And post flop is very inescusable. I would have folded the pre-flop if I knew the pot would be capped and 7 handed.

[mannika]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm don't play much limit hold'em, but I have to say that your play is questionable pre-flop. And post flop is very inescusable. I would have folded the pre-flop if I knew the pot would be capped and 7 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're making it painfully obvious that you don't play limit.