JJ -- too passive, or correctly cautious??

[JackOfSpeed]

With 3 limpers in front of me (2 of them very loose players), I didn't really want to put myself to a very difficult post-flop situation. I ended up having a hard time playing this hand anyway, as three unders flopped, and I turned an openended straight draw (still having an overpair).

I remembered Sklansky's advice from TPFAP: Always take a freecard (as opposed to betting when checked to) if a reraise will make you want to throw up.

Also: this is in a $100 tournament with 65 left (of 74 to start) -- top 10 get paid.

Thoughts??

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1175)
MP2 (t1715)
MP3 (t1860)
Hero (t755)
Button (t425)
SB (t825)
BB (t655)
UTG (t1125)
UTG+1 (t1770)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t180) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t135</font>, SB calls t135, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (t450) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t450) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero folds. (The convertor is not showing the SB's 525 "All-in" push).

Final Pot: t450

[durron597]

I move in on this turn 100% of the time.

[TheTimeIsUp]

Ugly. You HAVE to raise PF here, don't be weak/tight. You must make a big turn bet as well.

[JackOfSpeed]

Hmmm. Thanks. Obviously, big turn bet makes me potstuck, right? Should I just push the turn?

How much should the raise PF be?

I guess I'm seeing monsters in my closet. The flop call screamed set to me at the time, but I guess it could have just as easily been a10, k10 or a straight draw.

No one is calling the river after I botch the turn, are they?

[redwolf01]

I have a tough time on jacks as well...but you said you are playing 2 guys yyou know to be loose. In that situation with that knowlege I think a 2-4x BB raise should have been made and if he checks the flop, check with him. The turn falling the way it did, I would have raised in the pot in an effort to dispel the idea that I was bluffing pre-flop with such a big raise. If he folds here you dont let him see the last card and hell likely think you have filled out your hand.

I dont think anyone can fault you for being cautious this early in the tourney though, so you lost a few bucks big deal... Its not like winning or losing this pot would have been huge for you anyhow.

[yoadrians]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a 2-4x BB raise should have been made

[/ QUOTE ]

A mini raise of 2X the BB is silly, IMHO, because you're pretty much giving everyone else odds to call and see a flop ... and you don't want a million people seeing the flop with JJ.

I like the idea that you will raise 3X the BB PLUS an extra BB for every limper ... so I def. think you should've raised to the 150-210 range here.

And when your villain checks that turn, I'm going to agree with a previous poster in this thread that I'm going to move in right then and there every time. If he was slow-slow-slow playing his set, then you pay him off I guess. But i'm not sure that a set is going to check BOTH the flop and turn, especially with the board turning into a drawing machine.

Hey, you were cautious, didn't lose too much money, and you lived to fight another day. In a tournament, that's great. But I also think you missed a good chance to improve your stack early on (another very helpful thing to do in a tournament), and I think a pf raise AND a heavy turn bet puts all those chips into your stack.

[JackOfSpeed]

Great posts so far. Thanks guys.

Let me just lay out my reasoning for playing the hand so passively, and you guys can tell me if I've been considering the wrong things when playing online MTTs. Sklansky and TJ Cloutier are most to blame for my mistakes on this hand:

1. Didn't want to raise pot after 3 limpers, because of my Sklansky-induced (TPFAP) fear of a large pot (and the likelihood that at least two of them would have come with me - not to mention that there were still several more players left to act). The consensus is that that was a mistake of small to moderate magnitude - I don't mind playing this hand for set value against a bunch of donks, however.

2. Flop. I probably should have bet a bit more, so I'd have more of an idea of what I was up against if anyone called. My problem here, exacerbated by my having read TJ Cloutier's Championship No Limit and PL Holdem is that SB's check-call with this board screams a set to me.

[As an aside, there's no freaking way I'd check-call a set with this many callers on the flop, and with that scary of a turn card, there's no way I'd risk giving a freebie. But some people in these tourneys slowplay till the bitter end.]

Wouldn't Ace Ten or King 10 (and perhaps JT or QT as well) bet out here?

Anyhoo, all in all, I don't think my flop play was too bad, given my preflop line and the cards on the board.

3. Turn. Again, I am haunted by the Sklansky TPFAP quote, "Never bet a turn card when checked to if a reraise will make you want to throw up." Now, I think this is where I most fatally misused a book's advice. Because of the size of my stack, I don't really have to worry about being blown off of my hand. Despite my "read," I guess a push is the play, because most of the time my read is incorrect and I have the guy beat, and, when I am beat, I've still probably got 10 outs to a winner, unless he has JQ.

Admittedly, I would have been in a very awkward river-spot if another blank had fallen (2 thru 5, or even an 8 or 9) and he had pushed. The King made it easier for me to get away from my hand, even though the only way that the card helped him was if he had K10 or if he was donking with AK.

So, should I forget the two pieces of TPFAP advice, and Cloutier's thoughts on the meaning of a check-call?

[Edit - sorry to be so long-winded. I've been beating myself up on this hand and truly want to understand the right frame of mind to be in in these type of MTT situations]