SB defense, too aggro ?

[Trix]

BTN is 58/23/3, 51 ASB for ~120 hands

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

[ALL1N]

Hey trix

Preflop I don't like doing this. QJs is definately strong enough, but it plays so much better 3-handed than HU. I guess it depends on how the BB plays as well as the button's tendency to showdown.

Flop CR is fine, especially because the preflop cap will make the guy more inclined to fastplay AA/KK/AQ/KQ here, meaning you face the pop while your equity is still strong.

Richie

[danng721]

For SB defense, I generally want high card power. I'd be more inclined to 3-bet with an A2 than QJ.

However, after you made your decision, your play is fine - although I hate that river card. Can't think of anything that you could possibly beat (maybe overplayed Jacks or Tens, but that's a big maybe), but I'd call down anyways just to see what he had. Did you have a read on what range button caps PF with?

[StellarWind]

I play the same.

[spydog]

Unless villian has shown ability to fold the flop for 1 bet when he gets 3-bet on a steal I would just call preflop and check raise the flop if I catch a piece.

[wheelz]

Is it acceptable to semi-cold call out of the SB sometimes? I find myself with a lot of hands like these where I'd feel comfortable calling a raise, but uncomfortable 3-betting. Since I've learned to play with the 3-bet or fold mantra, I end up folding. I'm folding my SB too much though.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless villian has shown ability to fold the flop for 1 bet when he gets 3-bet on a steal I would just call preflop and check raise the flop if I catch a piece.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a strategic element here. Shania doesn't like people who only coldcall roughly three different hands in this situation. Not sure if this is your approach but I think it summarizes what some players do.

QJs has plenty of equity against someone who raises half his hands. QJs is a nice drawing hand but it still derives most of its shorthanded value from making one decent pair. Having BB in the hand and acting after us will not exactly be an asset.

3-betting is good.

[wheelz]

That answers my question.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
Shania doesn't like people who only coldcall roughly three different hands in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

What 3 hands are you talking about?

As a general rule, I don't think 3-betting this is better than calling. If your image is tight or strong, then I like 3-betting better. If the villian couldn't be arsed with your image (which is more likely), then calling and playing strong if you hit the flop is better, IMO.

[Stefan_K]

[ QUOTE ]
I play the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Trix]

Makes sense. You only coldcall here if Button and BB are bad enough that they wont correctly put you on something like QJ/KT/KJ ? Or you coldcall a bunch of other stuff too in this spot so your range doesn´t get that slim ?

[Nate tha' Great]

Against someone this aggressive, I'd be inclined to retain the lead here with a flop cap and turn lead. I also think this is a good flop for a lead-3bet line.

[BottlesOf]

yea, I think that river really sucks, I'm tempted to fold there, but only 9%....

Everything looks right.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
What 3 hands are you talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]
No exact three hands. Something like QJs, JTs, and KTs. Hands lacking showdown value that people like to play for their drawing potential.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
Makes sense. You only coldcall here if Button and BB are bad enough that they wont correctly put you on something like QJ/KT/KJ ? Or you coldcall a bunch of other stuff too in this spot so your range doesn´t get that slim ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I also used to be a little worried about being predictable against good opponents, but against against these guys I've got a much greater chance of pushing out other highcards when I 3-bet. So yeah, I usually 3-bet non-ace highcards and suited connectors (smaller ones too) against a decent button openraise and muck stuff like bad Axo because fold equity is decent here and the chance of cheap showdown is not.

Against most though I just coldcall with QT/JT/T8s style hands and small pairs - which I think balances the shania of the flop checkraise (weak pairs, strong pairs, semibluffs and bluffcheckraises sometimes too).

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Against most though I just coldcall with QT/JT/T8s style hands and small pairs - which I think balances the shania of the flop checkraise (weak pairs, strong pairs, semibluffs and bluffcheckraises sometimes too).

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be more of a fan of the flat call here. Indeed, from a mathematical POV, a QJs type hand will generally benefit more from the presence of a third player (the BB) than the Button's range of open-raising hands will. But increasingly I've come to believe that the 3-bet is correct, simply because it makes it so much more likely that you'll win the pot without a showdown, both by folding the BB and by giving you some postflop initiative. The deciding factor really is how the Button plays after the flop - if he's on the TAG side of LAG, and can make some reasonable laydowns with A-high or K-high or some small pair later in the hand, then I think the folding equity / momentum that the 3-bet buys you is more than worthwhile. OTOH against a truly LAG player who will rarely fold a hand with showdown value and will do a lot of playing back at you with mediocre hands, it may become more acceptable to take a flop and get paid off when you hit.

[ALL1N]

Yeah, I agree that it depends on whether we've got much of a shot at getting A/K high to fold.

Something that troubles me against this sort of player is when the BB folds and the flop comes A-rag-rag. If we've 3-bet preflop, then we should have no problem picking up the pot if he's pairless. But when we've flatcalled, it's a lot harder to take it. This sort of guy is probably stubborn enough that he'll call or 3-bet a flop CR without a pair some of the time. Running the CR bluff which would be good against a TAG looks bad here, and so the pot has to slide in his direction.