This is my problem with the PVS [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : This is my problem with the PVS

Newt_Buggs

06-05-2005, 01:40 AM

oops
$50+5
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t3665)
CO (t515)
Button (t1150)
SB (t2020)
Hero (t1100)
UTG (t1550)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP calls t100, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to t1100 (All-In), MP (after a long delay) calls t1000, SB folds.

Flop: (t2300) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2300) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2300) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2300

Results in white below: 
Hero has 8d Td (three of a kind, fives).
MP has Qd Jd (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: MP wins t2300.

GoldenHorde

06-05-2005, 01:46 AM

Why push into the big stack?

Its a much more effective move when you are threatening someones entire tourney.

Karak567

06-05-2005, 01:48 AM

I did the same thing today out of the BB, I had everyone who limped covered (everyone had about 12x BB). The only one who I had barely covered was UTG who limped, I had 50 more chips than he did.

He insta-called with AJos. Like I don't know how he possibly hit the call button so fast, lol.

Scuba Chuck

06-05-2005, 01:51 AM

I have two rules for you.

1) don't do a PVS, and

2) dont' forget rule number one.

Scuba

Newt_Buggs

06-05-2005, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have two rules for you.

1) don't do a PVS, and

2) dont' forget rule number one.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, good rules

At first when I tried this stuff at the lower buy ins and it didn't work I just figured that it was because the players were too loose. Now that I'm at the $50s though I'm realizing that the players still suck. If a player is bad enough to limp a weak hand he is often bad enough to call off all of his chips with it.

Scuba Chuck

06-05-2005, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have two rules for you.

1) don't do a PVS, and

2) dont' forget rule number one.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, good rules

At first when I tried this stuff at the lower buy ins and it didn't work I just figured that it was because the players were too loose. Now that I'm at the $50s though I'm realizing that the players still suck. If a player is bad enough to limp a weak hand he is often bad enough to call off all of his chips with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I started doing a PVS, if you will, in the early levels. And I concur, the players are very loose/fishy. For example, I had JJ in the BB on level 1. Like 8 limpers in the pot. I push (PVS??). One of the middle guys thinks for a while and calls with 77. Thank you, double up.

Another, similar situation on level 2. About 4 limpers to me in the BB with AKs. (I always remember the Aleo guide telling us that AKs was an OK hand to go allin with, but not to call with, lol). Anyway, I do a PVS (??), and UTG thinks for a bit, and calls with KQs. Thank you, double up.

My point is, the PVS works pretty well. Just do it with a good hand.

Scuba

hummusx

06-05-2005, 02:10 AM

Could be weekend effect. I've completely dropped the PVS tonight because I'm am being called all the time with all kinds of hands. I'll probably bring it back out during the week. As someone else said, I really thought that at the 50s this would work a lot better - I'm not finding that to be the case. People absolutely SUCK at the 50s.

dfscott

06-05-2005, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have two rules for you.

1) don't do a PVS, and

2) dont' forget rule number one.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the whole point of the PVS was to do it either with a) a little stack (around t500) or b) a big stack (well over t1000). IIRC, PVS himself said he rarely did it in the t800-t1000 range.

DonButtons

06-05-2005, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
oops
$50+5
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t3665)
CO (t515)
Button (t1150)
SB (t2020)
Hero (t1100)
UTG (t1550)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP calls t100, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to t1100 (All-In), MP (after a long delay) calls t1000, SB folds.

Flop: (t2300) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2300) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2300) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2300

Results in white below: 
Hero has 8d Td (three of a kind, fives).
MP has Qd Jd (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: MP wins t2300. 

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong situation to do this...

your in good shape, you can easily check and take a free flop here, and still have around 10xbb...

dfscott

06-05-2005, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Could be weekend effect. I've completely dropped the PVS tonight because I'm am being called all the time with all kinds of hands. I'll probably bring it back out during the week. As someone else said, I really thought that at the 50s this would work a lot better - I'm not finding that to be the case. People absolutely SUCK at the 50s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I'm done with the 55s. I'm thinking I may even start dropping back to the 22s over the weekend until I learn how to adjust better.

Newt_Buggs

06-05-2005, 02:13 AM

are you doing this stuff at the $30s scuba?

also, its just so tempting to try to get away with plays like these that are such massively +EV if they work

***** Hand History for Game 2153999194 *****
100/200 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 12805315) - Sat Jun 04 14:42:04 EDT 2005
Table Table 12953 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 2: NewtBuggs (945)
Seat 3: beat_stick (1250)
Seat 4: jay92175 (1220)
Seat 5: roccod555 (695)
Seat 7: ilcpa (400)
Seat 8: mspoker999 (835)
Seat 9: yellowdolfin (2085)
Seat 10: JustPretty (2570)
JustPretty posts small blind (50)
NewtBuggs posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NewtBuggs [ 2d, 7h ]
beat_stick folds.
jay92175 calls (100)
roccod555 folds.
ilcpa folds.
jay92175: lol
mspoker999 calls (100)
yellowdolfin folds.
JustPretty calls (50)
NewtBuggs raises (845) to 945
NewtBuggs is all-In.
jay92175 folds.
mspoker999 folds.
JustPretty folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1245 with NewtBuggs
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1245
NewtBuggs balance 1245, bet 945, collected 1245, net +300
beat_stick balance 1250, didn't bet (folded)
jay92175 balance 1120, lost 100 (folded)
roccod555 balance 695, didn't bet (folded)
ilcpa balance 400, didn't bet (folded)
mspoker999 balance 735, lost 100 (folded)
yellowdolfin balance 2085, didn't bet (folded)
JustPretty balance 2470, lost 100 (folded)

Newt_Buggs

06-05-2005, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]

wrong situation to do this...

your in good shape, you can easily check and take a free flop here, and still have around 10xbb...

[/ QUOTE ]
I've found that you need a large stack to have much chance for this to work. Also, I obviously don't need these chips but if theres a high chance that I can steal them by pushing here then I think that its a good play.

I'm not necessarily defending myself here, I'm just trying to get as much out of this discussion as I can.

[ QUOTE ]
Could be weekend effect. I've completely dropped the PVS tonight because I'm am being called all the time with all kinds of hands. I'll probably bring it back out during the week. As someone else said, I really thought that at the 50s this would work a lot better - I'm not finding that to be the case. People absolutely SUCK at the 50s.

[/ QUOTE ]
I played a set of $100s today and was definitly not impressed there either.

Scuba Chuck

06-05-2005, 02:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
are you doing this stuff at the $30s scuba?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not with arguably the worst hand in poker, no. but I have with slightly stronger hands (like ducks). But that being said, I really think you should read my recent post about patience (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2543129 &Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25 &Main=2543129&Search=true&where=&Name=22022&datera nge=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=#Post2543129).

This move is very fishy. Save your fishiness until it's 4 handed, then you can go buckwild.

Scuba

chumdawg

06-05-2005, 02:24 AM

Hate to ask so many questions, but what is "PVS" and what is "IIRC?" Thanks.

Newt_Buggs

06-05-2005, 02:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have two rules for you.

1) don't do a PVS, and

2) dont' forget rule number one.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, good rules

At first when I tried this stuff at the lower buy ins and it didn't work I just figured that it was because the players were too loose. Now that I'm at the $50s though I'm realizing that the players still suck. If a player is bad enough to limp a weak hand he is often bad enough to call off all of his chips with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I started doing a PVS, if you will, in the early levels. And I concur, the players are very loose/fishy. For example, I had JJ in the BB on level 1. Like 8 limpers in the pot. I push (PVS??). One of the middle guys thinks for a while and calls with 77. Thank you, double up.

Another, similar situation on level 2. About 4 limpers to me in the BB with AKs. (I always remember the Aleo guide telling us that AKs was an OK hand to go allin with, but not to call with, lol). Anyway, I do a PVS (??), and UTG thinks for a bit, and calls with KQs. Thank you, double up.

My point is, the PVS works pretty well. Just do it with a good hand.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]
oops, I was actually referring to this post which I found very interesting. What levels are you playing/intending this for? (what buyins were the examples taken from)

wuwei

06-05-2005, 02:29 AM

I think you guys are out of control with this.

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

Scuba Chuck

06-05-2005, 02:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What levels are you playing/intending this for? (what buyins were the examples taken from)

[/ QUOTE ]

These two precise examples were from todays $33s.

1C5

06-05-2005, 09:57 AM

The moves with JJ and AK are not PVS though.

The PVS is done with a crappy hand. The JJ and AK push are simply good plays that should be more routine.

Scuba Chuck

06-05-2005, 10:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The moves with JJ and AK are not PVS though.

The PVS is done with a crappy hand. The JJ and AK push are simply good plays that should be more routine.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with this statement, I must be benefitting from all the loose PVS's.

KingDan

06-05-2005, 11:18 AM

what does PVS stand for? Is this the Sklansky article about bluffing out of the blinds?

dfscott

06-05-2005, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are out of control with this.

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

[/ QUOTE ]

The PVS is the new stop-and-go.

LeVoodoo

06-05-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what does PVS stand for? Is this the Sklansky article about bluffing out of the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Phil Van Sexton. See his original post on the subject. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=199 7018&fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

Big Limpin'

06-05-2005, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what does PVS stand for? Is this the Sklansky article about bluffing out of the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the last 2 weeks, this forum went all lovey-dovey for exactly what you said "bluffing out of the blinds".

definition: PVS = donating money to the best hand of the 5 limpers.
(from this or that post from Mr. Phil Van Sextion, who i love to death, but dont follow a hand post idea like a friggin lemming off a cliff)

You f*ckers got what you deserve. Honestly LMAO.

LeVoodoo

06-05-2005, 11:37 AM

As with any new and trendy idea, most people end up misinterpreting how it really works and attempt it in unfavorable situations. Then they come here and wonder why it doesn't work for them. Remember the impetus obssession? Same deal here. Doesn't mean that it's usage, if properly applied, isn't largely profitable.

Geordie Ramone

06-05-2005, 12:18 PM

As I was reading this thread this situation came up. Two limpers, rubbish hand level 3. Come in PVS

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t825)
UTG+1 (t1280)
MP1 (t1010)
MP2 (t1795)
CO (t685)
Button (t735)
Hero (t710)
BB (t960)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t50, 1 fold, MP2 calls t50, 2 folds, Hero raises to t710 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: t860

Phil Van Sexton

06-05-2005, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what does PVS stand for? Is this the Sklansky article about bluffing out of the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the last 2 weeks, this forum went all lovey-dovey for exactly what you said "bluffing out of the blinds".

definition: PVS = donating money to the best hand of the 5 limpers.
(from this or that post from Mr. Phil Van Sextion, who i love to death, but dont follow a hand post idea like a friggin lemming off a cliff)

You f*ckers got what you deserve. Honestly LMAO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't really make this play nearly as often as everyone thinks. Doing it against a lot of limpers or when the limpers have huge stacks is pretty dangerous, obviously. Also, I only do it when I need to, not because I want to.

I don't even remember a good example from my games the other day. I do have a couple examples of people looking me up. I doubt these people know my screen name, but maybe they do. How else do I explain this spite call or the 2nd hand where someone actually trapped me?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t680)
UTG+1 (t1105)
MP1 (t460)
MP2 (t925)
MP3 (t890)
CO (t1865)
Button (t1340)
SB (t1920)
Hero (t815)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t60, 6 folds, SB calls t45, Hero raises to t815 (All-In), UTG folds, SB calls t755.

Flop: (t1690) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1690) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1690) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1690

Results:
SB has Ah 7h (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Qh Qs (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: SB wins t1690.

Final Pot: t1690

Villian says: "That will show him"

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1088)
UTG (t940)
UTG+1 (t925)
MP1 (t1460)
MP2 (t1215)
MP3 (t1027)
CO (t1860)
Hero (t465)
SB (t1020)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP3 calls t30, CO calls t30, Hero raises to t465 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls t435.

Flop: (t1065) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1065) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1065) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1065

Results:
CO has Ad As (full house, aces full of twos).
Hero has Th Ac (two pair, aces and twos).
Outcome: CO wins t1065.

deathpotato

06-05-2005, 12:49 PM

Limping the aces there can often be a good move against an unknown who just suffered a bad beat, and not necessarily require a read that you're liable to pull this sort of thing. I'm sure you've noticed tilting people pushing their next hand over limpers a lot.

durron597

06-05-2005, 02:09 PM

I love the PVS.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1240)
Hero (t900)
UTG (t2660)
MP (t2810)
Button (t5890)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Button calls t100, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1000, Button folds.

Final Pot: t1150

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2785)
SB (t3000)
Hero (t2355)
UTG (t5360)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t150, Button calls t150, SB completes, Hero raises to t2505, UTG folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: t2955

NYCNative

06-05-2005, 02:18 PM

See, I thought a PVS was when you had crap in the BB and were making a major bluff. These appear to actually be hands that are okay. The Queens are better than okay, actually...

I tried what I thought was a modified PVS when I had six limpers when I had AJo (modified because I thought AJo was a decent hand and usually is against UB $11 limpers). I thought good time for it. Instead I got TWO callers who then checked it down. First had deuces. Second on the button had Jacks. I didn't improve.

The danger of the PVS seems to be villain that will call with anything or villain that limps to slowplay. Since there are a lot of the former and enough of the latter to be dangerous in the lower limits, I don't think I'm doing this move again unless I have a big pair...

Newt_Buggs

06-05-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I love the PVS.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1240)
Hero (t900)
UTG (t2660)
MP (t2810)
Button (t5890)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Button calls t100, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1000, Button folds.

Final Pot: t1150

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2785)
SB (t3000)
Hero (t2355)
UTG (t5360)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t150, Button calls t150, SB completes, Hero raises to t2505, UTG folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: t2955

[/ QUOTE ]
I consider these to be fairly standard plays, kind of like this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t2820)
Button (t1965)
SB (t535)
Hero (t975)
UTG (t645)
MP (t3060)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Button calls t100, SB completes, Hero raises to t975 (All-In), Button calls t875, SB folds.

Flop: (t2050) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2050) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2050) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2050

Button has 3h Ah (one pair, fours).
Hero has Ad 9d (one pair, fours).
Outcome: Hero wins t2050.

btw, nice hands phil