AA - monochrome flop

[Scuba Chuck]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

<font color="blue"> $33 buyin, like 3rd hand, so no reads </font>


SB (t770)
BB (t800) <font color="white"> villain has KJ red </font>
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
Hero (t800)
CO (t2455)
Button (t775)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, CO calls t60, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t45.

Flop: (t180) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t95</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t190</font>, Hero calls t95.

Turn: (t560) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="blue"> Stupid Converter - BB bets 225, Hero takes time, and pushes... - BB calls</font>

River: (t1660) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1660

<font color="blue"> Do you play this way? </font>

[KenProspero]

He had the flush, didn't he?

Did you have any read on BB going into the hand? If he's a rock, I'm probably folding, maniac, definately calling. But you knew that.

[Sponger15SB]

I think it is important to tell us the buy in for this tourney.

[Scuba Chuck]

Edited post. $33 buyin, no reads.

[KenProspero]

You're in a tough spot then.

What cards could Villian be holding here.

If he's a good player --

Flush
2 pair
club and a pair
Overpair

You're a big favorite to an over pair, coin flip (slight favorite?) Big underdog to anything else.

I think I probably call here, but I don't play at your stakes level, so it's an easier call for me.

[AA suited]

he cold called 3bb after 1 other caller. pocket pair and suited connectors are a possibility.

i would have folded when he check/raised. it's lvl1 and you dont have a club. pick better spots

[Newt_Buggs]

I think that I would play this hand the same way, but I would definitly not be happy about it

[Scuba Chuck]

AA, I was thinking that his turn bet seemed a little heavy. I mean, if you had the flush here, wouldn't you want some action?

[Isaac Newton]

I've been agonizing over this play for an hour. I think I move in after the flop and if he's got it, he's got it.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been agonizing over this play for an hour. I think I move in after the flop and if he's got it, he's got it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one reason I don't care for this move generally is because seeing just that one more card not being a club is mentally reassuring IF I plan to move in on the turn. Furthermore, it's a little more psychological for villain if he now knows he only has one chance to complete his flush.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Scuba said:
AA, I was thinking that his turn bet seemed a little heavy. I mean, if you had the flush here, wouldn't you want some action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if he didnt have the Ace of clubs, and thinking you might have AK since you raised 4BB preflop.

my view is dont slowplay if you don't have the nuts.

Lost my stack when i flopped a set of aces on rainbow flop. i slow played since no flush threat, not realizing that someone could have been on a straight draw.

[Isaac Newton]

I see your point. But if you let him see the turn and he leads out again with a good sized bet, it's a tough spot to push.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Scuba said:
AA, I was thinking that his turn bet seemed a little heavy. I mean, if you had the flush here, wouldn't you want some action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if he didnt have the Ace of clubs, and thinking you might be drawing with it since you raised 4BB preflop.

my view is dont slowplay if you don't have the nuts.

Lost my stack when i flopped a set of aces on rainbow flop. i slow played since no flush threat, not realizing that someone could have been on a straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we've all learned a lesson like that. Here's the deal, how scared should I be in general on the turn, with a three suited flop? Let's say I knew I was ahead here, but villain had one club. Frankly, I think about these scenarios a lot. I usually fold a lot of hands here, but maybe this is a mistake.

BTW, IF there was more than one player in this pot, I'd be out FAST.

Scuba

[AA suited]

you have no reads on him, the board is scary, you dont have a club, he check raised on the flop, and yet you are confident that he doesnt have a made flush just because he bet out 40% pot on the turn?

so confident that you're willing to risk your whole tourny at lvl1 by RAISING all-in?!?

you are a better player than I am /images/graemlins/smile.gif

(well, with my current streak, i guess anyone is better than me, but you know what i mean... /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been agonizing over this play for an hour. I think I move in after the flop and if he's got it, he's got it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one reason I don't care for this move generally is because seeing just that one more card not being a club is mentally reassuring IF I plan to move in on the turn. Furthermore, it's a little more psychological for villain if he now knows he only has one chance to complete his flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
One of the factors on why I call here (which I almost never do) is that if you reraise all in you're going to still get called by the flush but probably push out the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. By just calling here, you induce a hand like AJ to bet out strong on the turn trying to protect his hand.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
you have no reads on him, the board is scary, he check raised on the flop, and yet you are confident that he doesnt have a made flush just because he bet out 40% pot on the turn? so confident that you're willing to risk your whole tourny at lvl1 by raising all-in?!?

you are a better player than I am /images/graemlins/smile.gif

(well, with my current streak, i guess anyone is better than me, but you know what i mean... /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, good point. But ultimately here's where I'm going with this. Villain didn't even have one club. Now how often am I passing up on good hands here?

<font color="white"> Results in white in OP </font>

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been agonizing over this play for an hour. I think I move in after the flop and if he's got it, he's got it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one reason I don't care for this move generally is because seeing just that one more card not being a club is mentally reassuring IF I plan to move in on the turn. Furthermore, it's a little more psychological for villain if he now knows he only has one chance to complete his flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
One of the factors on why I call here (which I almost never do) is that if you reraise all in you're going to still get called by the flush but probably push out the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. By just calling here, you induce a hand like AJ to bet out strong on the turn trying to protect his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, villain had K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Nick M]

I bet the pot everytime and if he raises me I move in. Nothing would stop me from getting all my money in unless another club came or possibly a jack.

[AA suited]

isnt it the normal line to slow play a flopped flush, and check raise???

What in the world makes you SOOOOOO confident that he doesnt have a flush if he check raises that you're willing to risk all at lvl1 vs waiting for a better situation later on???

[Isaac Newton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been agonizing over this play for an hour. I think I move in after the flop and if he's got it, he's got it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one reason I don't care for this move generally is because seeing just that one more card not being a club is mentally reassuring IF I plan to move in on the turn. Furthermore, it's a little more psychological for villain if he now knows he only has one chance to complete his flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
One of the factors on why I call here (which I almost never do) is that if you reraise all in you're going to still get called by the flush but probably push out the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. By just calling here, you induce a hand like AJ to bet out strong on the turn trying to protect his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but your leaving yourself with a tough decision if he leads out with a good bet on the turn. He's told you twice that he has a flush and is trying to avoid a drawout.

I agree, though, if you are committed to staying with the hand no matter what, a call on the flop is right.

[lastchance]

You need to play these spots. Being afraid of a flush on a board with only 3 clubs without a strong read is going to be wrong, especially when you've got the overpair. He's shown you no reason to think you're not ahead. Like I said in a different thread, to make this hand profitable, you've got to get as much action as possible with crap while still defending against the club draw.

I bet out 3/4 pot on the flop, and if a club doesn't hit on the turn, I'm going to try find a way to get his chips in the middle with a dominated hand.

A flush here is a very remote possibility. Your hand is like having JJ on a 752 flop. Probably the best hand right now, but I am damn scared of reverse implied odds. This hand is a bit more manageable than that, because you know what the scare card, and you can definitely lay down to it.

I'm just not afraid of what he's got right now, but I'm afraid of what he can make/represent.

So, bet 3/4 pot on the flop, move in to a raise. I might check the turn, but I doubt it. Flush card will check for the freebie. Move in on turn.

[Isaac Newton]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to play these spots. Being afraid of a flush on a board with only 3 clubs without a strong read is going to be wrong, especially when you've got the overpair. He's shown you no reason to think you're not ahead. Like I said in a different thread, to make this hand profitable, you've got to get as much action as possible with crap while still defending against the club draw.

I bet out 3/4 pot on the flop, and if a club doesn't hit on the turn, I'm going to try find a way to get his chips in the middle with a dominated hand.

A flush here is a very remote possibility. Your hand is like having JJ on a 752 flop. Probably the best hand right now, but I am damn scared of reverse implied odds. This hand is a bit more manageable than that, because you know what the scare card, and you can definitely lay down to it.

I'm just not afraid of what he's got right now, but I'm afraid of what he can make/represent.

So, bet 3/4 pot on the flop, move in to a raise. I might check the turn, but I doubt it. Flush card will check for the freebie. Move in on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a good strategy is to avoid these situations early in a tourney. You know almost nothing about the players and you are up against a frightening board with no outs. He does not need a flush, either. He could have called from the BB with JTs. If I risk the buy-in early I want a better hand.

[lastchance]

I admit, it is a really scary flop. But it's only three to a flush. Would you be as scared on the turn or river?

The real scare is a flush card on the turn. Other than that, this board is like any other, and you have AA.

[Nick M]

If he has a flush than I go broke. I don't really like to make to many decision. I hate giving myself the chance to outplay myself. I have aces, nothing stops me from getting it all in on the flop 95% of the time against 1 person...this is not part of the 5 percent I don't. And a flop that will stop me might be KKJ 2 flush or KQJ 2 flush. These type of flops where it is likely the player has 2 pair or trips.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If he has a flush than I go broke. I don't really like to make to many decision. I hate giving myself the chance to outplay myself. I have aces, nothing stops me from getting it all in on the flop 95% of the time against 1 person...this is not part of the 5 percent I don't. And a flop that will stop me might be KKJ 2 flush or KQJ 2 flush. These type of flops where it is likely the player has 2 pair or trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Nick. Your flop examples, I agree, are scary. Out of curiosity. Does the KKJ or KQJ flops also scare you if not a 2 flush?

[Nick M]

yes i think they do but the reason I say 2 flush is because he might have a million outs, like flush and straight draw. Which makes me a slight dog. He could also have a pair and a flush draw. In the case of KKJ that's not possible but you know what I mean.

The part about decisions is something I think a lot of people need to worry about. Decisions just plain suck. THIS is the reason I push a lot of the time preflop. People say they push in some situations cause it's +ev ok fine. But I like the fact that it doesn't take much thinking and I can focus on another problem. If i think I can steal it, I try. If i think I probably have the best hand I get it all in there, i do. I know you play a lot and I bet you at least 4 table. I 8 table and seriously i have no time to worry about a 3 flush flop with 1 paint.