Dumping JJ's... to soon to late?

[Arm187r]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (16.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (22.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 24.25 BB

No reads. I think maybe I should've called that last SB on the flop, but the Button's Cap really sold me that he had AA's. Plus the UTG+1 chose to checkraise two raisers.

I'd like to know what peoples opinions are on this. Thankyou.

[thesharpie]

If you want to fold the flop, fold when it's 2 to you, not when it's 1 to you getting 32-1 on your 22-1 longshot.

I personally fold when it's 2 back to me.

[dozer]

thats a bad fold on the flop. You are getting more than enough odds to hit a third jack. If you are going to fold then you should have folded earlier.

[Buckmulligan]

I don't think this is a bad fold.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a bad fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an atrocious fold. Hero is faced with a single bet closing the action in a 32.5SB pot.

The time to make a correct fold is when you're faced with 2 cold back to you on the flop. Once you made the mistake of calling there, that money is gone and you're obligated to call the last bet given the pot odds.

[Arm187r]

I understand I lost a half a SB bet "if I'm going to fold" I want to know if I "should've called or folded".

I thought about folding when it was 2 cold back to me but I still called. But the cap sold it for me if that makes any sense.

Do I fold sooner or call all the bets on the flop is what I would like to know.

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
The time to make a correct fold is when you're faced with 2 cold back to you on the flop. Once you made the mistake of calling there, that money is gone and you're obligated to call the last bet given the pot odds. I'm also gay.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was merely suggesting that it was correct to get out of there on the flop... I agree that it should have been after the first 2. You

[Dave G.]

I'm not capping preflop with JJ without some kind of read on button as a loose preflop raiser. What legitimate 3-betting hands are you infront of here? Really only AK and AQ (and some people wouldn't 3-bet AQ). Everything else has you crushed, and 3 overcards can come to beat you on the flop as well. Just call the 3-bet and see how the flop develops.

I'd fold when it comes back two to me on the flop, because there's the chance of getting it capped behind you. Folding for one bet to the cap is pretty bad though, the pot is massive. If a J came on the turn, you would probably be on tilt for the rest of the night.

[SteveL91]

If it were HU or maybe 3-handed, I'd likely call; however, with two players in the middle, I'd go ahead and cap.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The time to make a correct fold is when you're faced with 2 cold back to you on the flop. Once you made the mistake of calling there, that money is gone and you're obligated to call the last bet given the pot odds. I'm also gay.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was merely suggesting that it was correct to get out of there on the flop... I agree that it should have been after the first 2. You

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it's important to clarify your response when someone new to the forums posts a hand like this, lest you give the wrong perception. As written your post could easily be misinterpreted to be in support of OP's line of reasoning:

[ QUOTE ]
I thought about folding when it was 2 cold back to me but I still called. But the cap sold it for me if that makes any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, and judging from your creative editing of my post, you might also want to consider taking things less personally in the future; my post wasn't intended to be an attack on you. Just a thought.

[Buckmulligan]

na dude, i was completely screwin around. YOU need to stop taking things so personally. For a second there I thought you quoted your quote without seeing that in there at the end.
Anyone who uses the word attrocious, though, does deserve to shampoo my crotch. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Arm187r]

Final Pot: 24.25 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has 5d 5s (three of a kind, fives).
Button has Kc Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 24.25 BB.

Appreciate the comments everyone. I knew I was going to get reemed for folding for one SB considering how large the pot was. I even knew it at the time but I said to myself F-it i'm beat. I also knew how mad I'd be if I hit my set on the turn.
One thing I'd like to know is if I call the last bet. What's my play on the last two streets? Call down unimproved if there are no overcards?

[davelin]

Folding to the cap was atrocious.

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding to the cap was atrocious.


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew I was going to get reemed for folding for one SB considering how large the pot was. I even knew it at the time but I said to myself F-it i'm beat. I also knew how mad I'd be if I hit my set on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That pretty much sums it up. In this case, even if your opponent had showed you his set and you know you have the worst hand, the pot odds force you to call the 1 last bet to try to suck out.

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I'd like to know is if I call the last bet. What's my play on the last two streets? Call down unimproved if there are no overcards?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You call the flop cap only because the pot is so bloated you're forced to stay in. The flop action tells you that you're behind, and on the turn you're no longer getting the correct odds to draw to your set. Fold the turn UI.

[Phlebas]

[ QUOTE ]
Button has Kc Kd (one pair, kings).

[/ QUOTE ]
Add button to your buddy list, that was a hideously overplayed overpair. UTG+1's flop check raise should have made it obvious that he was up against 2 pair or better.

[ QUOTE ]
I knew I was going to get reemed for folding for one SB considering how large the pot was. I even knew it at the time but I said to myself F-it i'm beat. I also knew how mad I'd be if I hit my set on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you're behind at this point but you have the odds to hit your set. If you do hit it on the turn then you are either ahead yourself or, if it's the Jh, then you may be behind to the flush but would still have 10 outs to the boat.

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I'd like to know is if I call the last bet. What's my play on the last two streets? Call down unimproved if there are no overcards?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, if you don't get your jack then you need to fold. Depending on the betting you may just about be able to argue calling a single bet (e.g. if it was checked to button who bet and it was then one bet back to you to close the action). But with the Jh likely to give MP2 his flush then it would almost certainly be best to fold. As it was, with UTG+1 leading out and a likely raise from button you would have to fold without a second thought.

[Kevin K.]

[ QUOTE ]
But the cap sold it for me if that makes any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point they are making is that no matter how sure you are...even if the guy showed you AA at this point, you have to call. You are getting odds to catch a J. I would have folded when it was two back to me.

And a question: When you cap preflop with JJ, what are you hoping for? If you're not capping JJ for set equity then this is a good flop for you. There is a disconnect here between the preflop and flop thinking. You were rolling with JJ pf and are now looking for a reason to get out. Where are we at here?