Set under set under set. And i runner runner the flush.

[drexah]

This was right after i got stacked with QQ vs. AJ on a QKTr flop. I guess the gods felt bad.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

MP ($113.75)
Hero ($99.3)
SB ($114.6)
BB ($203.7)
UTG ($82.9)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, SB (poster) calls $2.50, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $9</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $7, SB calls $7.

Flop: ($31) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
CHECK pastorbrian
CHECK anthonyj29
BET dexah , $20
RAISE pastorbrian, $40
ALL-IN anthonyj29 [ $193.7 ]
ALL-IN dexah [ $69.3 ]
ALL-IN pastorbrian [ $64.6 ]

Turn: ($31) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

River: ($31) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Results:
SB has 8d 8h (three of a kind, eights).
BB has Jc Jh (three of a kind, jacks).
Hero has 6s 6d (flush, jack high).
Final Pot: $296.9

[ChuckyB]

I'm not sure which is most surprising:
1) You hit runner-runner flush
2) Three people hit sets on the flop
3) You called a re-raise to $10 preflop with sixes

[drexah]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure which is most surprising:
1) You hit runner-runner flush
2) Three people hit sets on the flop
3) You called a re-raise to $10 preflop with sixes

[/ QUOTE ]

^tilt after getting stacked with QQ on a KQT flop.

[ChuckyB]

Thank goodness for tilt hey?

[sourbeaver]

As far as preflop, it was 7 back to him, so if he was confident there would be no reraise, it wasn't that horrible.

[snappo]

[ QUOTE ]

3) You called a re-raise to $10 preflop with sixes

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop was fine. It was only $6 back to him and he had the other blind who called also.

[ChuckyB]

Calling $7 into $17 (with another man to act) is not sufficient when I suspect an overpair. SB has a good hand by calling the raise. Then the other guy goes over the top? That makes me think bigger pair. Even if hero was last to act, $7 into $24 is pretty bad. He's at least a 4:1 dog.

For example:
6s 6d 248751 18.15 1119334 81.66 2669 0.19 0.182
Ts Tc 593069 43.27 775016 56.54 2669 0.19 0.433
Ah Jh 526265 38.39 841820 61.41 2669 0.19 0.385

We all play different...I would have dumped it...and not won a load of cash.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
That makes me think bigger pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it does.

Q: What do you want when you're playing 66?
A: Someone who is going to pay you off when you hit a set.

-dB

[ChuckyB]

Granted you want to get paid off my hitting a set. But going in as a 4:1 underdog with 17:7 odds and a player behind you is crazy-ass crazy. Hit a set against AK or AQ with an A on the board. Your opponent has the same odds of hitting a set as you.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent has the same odds of hitting a set as you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not the point -- this is pretty basic implied odds.

Of course your opponent has the same odds of hitting a set as you do. BUT you have an advantage over him as soon as the flop comes out!

Why? Because if you hold 55, and the flop is QJ6, you are folding instantly. You're not going to draw to hit your set. You're not going to think your hand is good. You're not going to draw to a flush with one of your 5s. You're just going to fold.

On the other hand... if you hold QQ, your opponent holds 55, and the flop comes T85:

1) you're going to bet.
2) you're not going to assume your opponent has you beat, until he shows some serious aggression.

See what I mean?

-dB

[ChuckyB]

[ QUOTE ]
BUT you have an advantage over him as soon as the flop comes out!

Why? Because if you hold 55, and the flop is QJ6, you are folding instantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, you've already peed away $10 pre-flop knowing/believing you're dominated. Multiply that by the 6.5 times out of 7.5 that you won't hit a set...the implied odds say and you have to take $65 off your opponent when you make a set to break even. That doesn't even account for the 1 in 8 times your opponent hits a set too. In this situation, with wired 6s and a player yet to act...I'm gone.

In a cash game, there are more pairs coming.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BUT you have an advantage over him as soon as the flop comes out!

Why? Because if you hold 55, and the flop is QJ6, you are folding instantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, you've already peed away $10 pre-flop knowing/believing you're dominated. Multiply that by the 6.5 times out of 7.5 that you won't hit a set...the implied odds say and you have to take $65 off your opponent when you make a set to break even. That doesn't even account for the 1 in 8 times your opponent hits a set too. In this situation, with wired 6s and a player yet to act...I'm gone.

In a cash game, there are more pairs coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry man, but you are leaving serious money on the table. This isn't about being dominated. It's about implied odds. Making $65 is absurdly easy if you have $100 behind and the pot on the flop is already going to be $30. If you flop a set, you are easily going to get a 2/3 bet on the flop and turn, or a bet and raise on the flop.

It's not a great call, only because Hero is calling off fully 10% of his stack, but it's not a bad call either, and worrying about pot odds preflop with a hand like 66 is idiotic.

[ChuckyB]

I will concede the point to you...as these are bigger stakes than I play for. It's not taking a $65 pot though. It's making a $65 profit (above the money HERO put in) to make the implied odds work

[ChuckyB]

What if there wasn't a pre-flop re-raise to $10, three people were in for $3. Now he hits his 6 on the flop. Where's $65 profit going to come from? Pretend they call a 2/3-pot bet on the flop. The pot is now $27-rake...9 of it is yours.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
What if there wasn't a pre-flop re-raise to $10, three people were in for $3. Now he hits his 6 on the flop. Where's $65 profit going to come from? Pretend they call a 2/3-pot bet on the flop. The pot is now $27-rake...9 of it is yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero calls $3 preflop, then you don't need $65 profit to justify playing the hand....

... surely you're not advocating folding all low pocket pairs regardless of position, are you??

-dB

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
What if there wasn't a pre-flop re-raise to $10, three people were in for $3. Now he hits his 6 on the flop. Where's $65 profit going to come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY! The big preflop raise usually indicates a strong hand!

$65 profit is going to come when you flop a set and someone else has a strong hand -- and they pay you off.

Overpairs are strong hands that often pay off sets, especially at lower levels.

Look, I'm not advocating playing every low pp regardless of position or the size of the raise -- it depends largely on the opponent, the size of the raise, position, his stack size, and everything else.

You have to admit, though, that your logic is flawed if you refuse to play a low pocket pair if you think someone might have a higher one. What has better implied odds than a low set? It's completely disguised from the board, unlike a straight or a flush.

-dB

[ChuckyB]

By the way...I love this forum for debate. The people I normally play with aren't well read as you and the others here seem.

I've been thinking of the implied odds associated with a low pocket pair as being up against overcards...something where it's 5:4 preflop.

I don't know if I've run into the situation we're debating...if I have, I don't remember. I like low pocket pairs for cheap...not against a big raise with another player to act. The situation of the original poster gives me the willies.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
I will concede the point to you...as these are bigger stakes than I play for. It's not taking a $65 pot though. It's making a $65 profit (above the money HERO put in) to make the implied odds work

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot is $30 on flop. Let's say he is weak or whatever and only bets $20. Only you call. Turn pot is $70. He either bets $50 or check calls $50. And even if for some reason he folds the turn 1/3 of the time, you can probably get his stack the other 2/3 anyway.

[drexah]

Just checked up on this thread now, but im pleased with the discussion it is getting. Yes, it is an insanely absurd hand, but it also raises the question of how much to put in PF with low pairs against X number of opponents, given the implied odds etc. IMO, raising before the flop with low PP (the same as i would with TT-AA or AKs for instance) pays me off much better than just limping or min-raising. You can be much more aggressive postflop, and if you hit a set, you are more likely to get paid off (from what ive seen at least)

[drexah]

***** Hand History for Game 2162644120 *****
$100 NL Hold'em - Monday, June 06, 00:42:16 EDT 2005
Table Table 36958 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: TwoWolves ( $146.26 )
Seat 2: dexah ( $114.35 )
Seat 3: BFK_4_LIFE ( $183.17 )
Seat 5: sgboston23 ( $49 )
Seat 6: BigLongStick ( $35.8 )
BigLongStick posts small blind [$0.5].
dexah posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dexah [ Tc Td ]
BFK_4_LIFE calls [$1].
sgboston23 folds.
BigLongStick calls [$0.5].
dexah raises [$3].
BFK_4_LIFE raises [$9].
BigLongStick folds.
dexah calls [$6].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 4d, Th ]
dexah checks.
BFK_4_LIFE bets [$20].
dexah raises [$50].
BFK_4_LIFE is all-In [$153.17]
dexah is all-In [$54.35]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]
dexah shows [ Tc, Td ] three of a kind, tens.
BFK_4_LIFE shows [ Ah, Ac ] a pair of aces.
BFK_4_LIFE wins $68.82 from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
dexah wins $227.7 from the main pot with three of a kind, tens.


thoughts?

[sourbeaver]

Implied odds, not pot odds !!

[sourbeaver]

Good hand, but let's say he was going to raise it 5 or 6. I think you get his stack anyway when you coldcall PF.

I use a 10 or 12x ratio to evaluate what kind of profit is needed for a PP wanting a set, assuming you're not putting any more money in when you don't hit a set on the flop.

So 6$ called PF : profit needed (assuming 10x) is 60$ on average to break even.

9$ called PF : 90$

So for a 3$ raise on the flop, your difference in overlay is -30$. This assumes you'll stack opponent regardless of your raise and calling the reraise, or simply limp-calling his raise. The way villain played it, you were getting his stack no matter what.

[TheWorstPlayer]

This is a very easy call preflop. Just beware the AK6 flop.