Quick Flop Decision - TT

[StellarWind]

Party 5/10 6-max (4 handed)

You raise TT from cutoff. Completely unknown BB reraises and you call.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. You have a heart. BB bets ...

What's the plan?

[partygirluk]

Why not cap preflop?

[dave44]

This is a tough situation. I'm going to assume BB is reraising with many ace high hands, KK-77, and maybe KQ. One option is to simply call down. However, I don't think the odds he bluffs the whole way with a hand that you beat are very good.

I think you have to make a play at this pot at some point so I would probably raise the flop. Any more aggression from BB from there and I'm folding.

[hypermegachi]

this may be chip spewage....

raise the flop. if they 3bet back, peel one off and fold the turn UI.

if they call the raise, i bet the turn for value, but likely fold to the raise.

depending on the river, i'll bet for value again, or check/call for when i think i'm behind or can induce a bluff.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
this may be chip spewage....

raise the flop. if they 3bet back, peel one off and fold the turn UI.

if they call the raise, i bet the turn for value, but likely fold to the raise.

depending on the river, i'll bet for value again, or check/call for when i think i'm behind or can induce a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with all this except betting the river for value. what worse hands will call?

edit - also, i think you misread the positions. hero is last to act on all streets and cant check call the river.

[mperich]

Fold flop. But cap preflop and you might win this pot.
Whoever said make a play at this pot is spewing. Nobody is folding headsup.

-Mike

[Jeff W]

My plan is call-call-call.

I would cap pre flop to prevent myself from making improper folds in situations like this and inducing my opponent to make improper folds.

Not to mention TT has enough equity here to cap for value.

[hypermegachi]

you're right, i did misread.

i'm still torn on the river value bet though. if they call the flop raise and the turn bet, i never know what i'm up against.

it's very possible they have a medium pocket pair, and am paying me off, and it's also possible they have ace no kicker and are afraid of being out kicked, so they're calling down.

on more draw happy boards i'll check the river behind, saving myself from a CR.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]

I would cap pre flop to prevent myself from making improper folds in situations like this and inducing my opponent to make improper folds.

Not to mention TT has enough equity here to cap for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

well put.

[hypermegachi]

i'm playing back at them to save me money.

automatically calling down loses me 2.5BB, or wins that much in the unlikely chance they're bluffing the entire way.

by raising them on the flop, that's 1BB. if they raise the turn, i fold, and it costs me 2BB. if they 3bet the flop back, i fold the turn UI, losing me 1.5BB.

[Subfallen]

Call and raise the turn for a free showdown.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
Call and raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the advantage of this vs. calling the turn/river?

[dave44]

Besides getting us 3-bet sometimes, it seems that will mainly only fold out lesser hands, while rarely causing villain to fold a better one.

[dave44]

You don't think villain has a lesser pair enough to continue?

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call and raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the advantage of this vs. calling the turn/river?

[/ QUOTE ]

We have at least some fold equity this way against JJ-KK, plus could fold an overplayed hand with six outs against us (say a KQs that would have paired the river.)

Compare this to just calling the whole way. If villian still bets the river after we call flop+turn, our river call will close to a 1 BB mistake---we'll be making it for information only.

Plus James282 told me to play it this way. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Compare this to just calling the whole way. If villian still bets the river after we call flop+turn, our river call will close to a 1 BB mistake---we'll be making it for information only.

[/ QUOTE ]
You say I should raise the turn to buy a showdown. Then you effectively say that this showdown has no value because if I merely call the turn he will almost never bet the river with a worse hand.

Aren't you actually arguing for call-call-fold?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
automatically calling down loses me 2.5BB, or wins that much in the unlikely chance they're bluffing the entire way.

by raising them on the flop, that's 1BB. if they raise the turn, i fold, and it costs me 2BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
So by raising the flop, betting the turn, and taking the free showdown you save 0.5 BB? Just remember that this savings comes with a price:

1. What happens if they play it bet-call, check-call, bet? Are you certain you can fold? Calling down will cost you 3 BB when you are (usually) wrong. Folding will cost you an occasional 8 BB pot.

2. Folding to a checkraise on the turn means you don't get to see the river. Losing two outs to win an 8 BB pot will cost you about 1/3 BB.

3. He could be taking a swipe at the pot with some piece of junk like 44. Folding him out with a flop raise is an expensive error if he would have continued his bluff. Of course the sort of player who would 3-bet 44 preflop is a danger to 3-bet the flop too /images/graemlins/blush.gif. We've all seen players whose mission in life is to push PFRs off their hands. They know that the PFR is apt to raise the flop with any two cards (like you are doing here) and they budget for it. They get their folds by 3-betting the flop and then betting the turn.

[Subfallen]

Yeah, I contradict myself there, thx for pointing it out Stellar. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Basically it was silly (alright, fcuking stupid) to say that calling to the river would be a 1 BB mistake. Our raise looks like a steal to the BB, and his range of re-raising hands could be pretty wide, like even maybe: {AA-77, AKs-A8s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo}. Against that range we still have 40% equity on this flop, and are getting 2.2:1 effective odds to call down. (So we only need to be good 31% of the time to break even, and 40% > 31%.)

Plus he's going to keep firing here with basically anything, because he has the momentum damn it, and we could be on a heart draw.

Ok, that said I still like calling the flop, raising the turn better than call-call-call. Why?
- We have some (admittedly small) fold equity against better PP's.
- We can fold a lot of six-out hands that could draw out on us.
- We still get the information value of a showdown while losing the same against better hands. (Of course we have to fold to a turn 3-bet, but if he does that with a worse hand, bless his heart and nh.)
- This is a good metagame play because it makes your flop flat-calls scarier and gets you more free cards.

Of course against a nice chunk of opponents the correct line is call-call-fold, but like you said this guys an unknown so we need to find a nice default play. Call-raise seems good to me, with call-call-fold second...

What did you do?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold flop. But cap preflop and you might win this pot.
Whoever said make a play at this pot is spewing. Nobody is folding headsup.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll keep the cap suggestion in mind.

I folded. I'm behind Ax, KK-JJ, and 88. That covers many players' entire 3-bet range. Trying to show my hand down will cost me about 2.5 BB when I'm wrong and win about 5 BB when I'm right. I can't imagine I'm good anywhere near 1/3 of the time against an unknown player.

Thanks to everyone who contributed.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm behind Ax, KK-JJ, and 88. That covers many players' entire 3-bet range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this one's pretty much a question of hand values.

[hypermegachi]

1) i'm usually paying off this donk-bet. but like you said, if i'm ahead i also win more.
2) with 2 outs we are 22:1 to hit...we need some insane implied odds to call profitably here.
3) i suspect most of the time we would have a read on someone who would do this and just go into call down mode.

anyways, capping this preflop saves us a lot of second-guessing :P

[chio]

i'd call the flop, and fold to a bet on any non-T or non-heart turn.

you are behind to even a loose 3betting range for BB (AA-55, AK-AT, KQ-KT, QJ) so i don't think calling down will show a profit. however, your ~3 outs plus the slight chance you are ahead warrant at least seeing the turn i think

if i had a read that BB was even slightly aggro (e.g. AA-55, AKs-A5s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo), i would call-call-call