commerce casino

[oddjob]

wow, i went and played at commerce casino last week. i don't know what i was worried about, i played 3-6 hold em. and this limit contains some of the worst players i have ever come across. in fact i couldn't believe how badly they played.

if you want to do well, just wait. be patient. then when you make your big draw, or have a hand hold up, you will get paid off greatly. most everyone there will call anything for any amount, to the end. hoping their bottom pair or whatnot is good.

it was fantastic. i flopped quads once and didn't even worry about being tricky as these guys would most certainly pay me off till the end. i just bet or raised and watch them all throw their money in.

on the flip side you'll get run down by some terrible hands. you just have to get over that. pocket A's taken down by 92o with the betting capped preflop???? and completely forget bluffing. i think i only successfully bluffed one pot. i got busted with only an A high, but the person who caught me had a J high??? it was basically show the best hand to win.

the casino itself was weird. no one followed or enforced rules. there were a dozen different languages spoken at my table with only 9 players!!! heh. there was player abuse, dealer abuse, floorperson abuse, and no one gave a a [censored]. 90% of the players were grumpy little people who played poorly and got pissed of when they couldn't hit their one outers. easy to put people on tilt and watch them throw money away.

for the most part i had a great time, but some of the grumpier people spoiled the moments for me and got to me.

i'm pretty confident that if you play good hands and have patience, you will make money here.

i thought it might have been a fluke, but the people played the same way at the hollywood park casino, except these people were even grumpier. and it was less organized.

can't wait to go back to commerce though.

[Dynasty]

Those Commerce games were great when I was there a year ago. But, the level of abuse the dealers take is ridiculous. I don't understand why it's tolerated.

[oddjob]

that was definitly one of the things that bugged me. they shouldn't have to put up with it, as there's plenty of players. there were a lot of jerks that i played against, that got way too upset over stupid stuff.

i wish i had tried some higher limits, just to see if those games were good as well.

[JimRivett]

Hello Oddjob,

I'm glad you enjoyed your session at the Commerce. I'm surprised at your comment regarding the non english being spoken at the table. Was this during the hand or between hands? I play at the Commerce (and other LA casinos) and if players are not speaking english during a hand all you have to do is mention it to the dealer and the dealer will say something to them, if fact most dealers will say something without any input from the other players.

Keep us informed of your time at the Commerce.

Happy New Year to All - Jim

[andyfox]

The games are indeed good at higher limits, but, if anything, the dealer abuse is tolerated even more, I suppose because a lot of the abusers tip the floormen heavily.

[oddjob]

yah, it was non-english all the time. the dealers didn't seem to care, nor did the floormen. one guy yelled at another player about speaking english during a hand, then the next minute he was speaking spanish during the hand and no one said a thing. heh. it was weird. i didn't care, cause these guys played so poorly i didn't see how collusion could help them at all.

i can see how the dealers didn't do anything, cause the floormen didn't seem to care about anything, so they'd probably get no support from them.

[snakehead]

I've been playing at casino arizona for the last few months, and I have not seen one incident of dealer abuse. 0. why do you think it is so prevalent in california, and non-existent here?

[HDPM]

Number of guns carried by players and dealers maybe? /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif


Had to throw that in for Andy. An armed society is a polite society, hence not an Archie enclave.

[Boris]

I think it's an LA thing. There is very little dealer abuse at the Bay Area casinos. I notice a fair amount of abuse at the LV casinos but half the time the dealers kind of deserve it.

BTW - Bay101 is trying to get an 80-160 going every Thursday. But I look at the names on the sign up list and I would not recommend going out of your way to play with those folks. We'll see how it turns out.

[andyfox]

I haven't the foggiest idea, but a couple of guesses:

1) People in small towns are generally nicer than people in big cities. L.A. isn't really a big city in the sense that New York or Chicago is, and Phoenix is not really a small town, but I think the point still holds.

2) Management puts up with it at the Commerce but doesn't at Casino Arizona.

[andyfox]

LOL! Touche!

We did have one incident here on the left coast, oh, I would guess about 25 years ago when a disgruntled looser shot into the windows of one of the Gardena casinos. I don't believe anyone was hurt (maybe some old-timers remember more details than I do), and the six Gardena casinos sprang into immediate action, and took out all windows.

[snakehead]

I don't think the management or the other players would put up with it here. but I think one of the reasons it happens in la has to do with racism. here, there is a very broad ethnic mix in the dealers, they are not mostly the same race as they are in la. and most of them here speak fluent english, unlike the commerce. otoh, some of the abusers are asian also, so I really don't know where I'm going with this.

[andyfox]

Well you may be on to something here. Now that I think about which dealers seem to take the worse abuse, many are Asian. But since a large percentage of the dealers (both abused and non-abused) are Asian anyway, it's hard to tell if racism if a factor.

BTW, it seems to me if Commerce kicked out all of the assholes, the games would be much worse. Blaming the dealer for one's losses seems to go hand in hand with not examining one's own game for more relevant reasons.

[Clarkmeister]

I've played at Commerce about a dozen times and it seems to me that while the Asian dealers take most of the abuse, that abuse comes from the Asian players. I see very few white, hispanic or african players riding the dealers, but the Asians seem to do it constantly. But my sample size is small so my observations could be totally irrelevant.

[andyfox]

I'm thinking of the top 10 jerks I know there and 9 are non-Asian. Not exactly a scientific sampling, I know, but I'm sure the percentage of players who are Asian in the games I play in is much higher than 10%.

Like most things, there's probably a variety of reasons that play a part: perhaps some racism for some players; the fact that the club puts up with it; entitlement disease among people who are either successful in other walks of life or are used to being deferred to no matter what they do; and maybe we have a higher than average percentage of assholes in L.A. than elsewhere.

[limon]

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

LOL! So far for me post of the year. I'll show this to Art Sathmary and see if he can confirm it.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

Regarding the fact that management puts up with it (applicable to all Los Angeles clubs, although Hawaiian Gardens has been a cut above and even the Bike is moving in the right direction) I have a few thoughts.

First, the abusers tend to be by nature boisterous and aggressive. When the typical floorman tries so curb their behavior they fight back. Often the floor does not get management support. And if they are barred, they usually make a noisy exit. The loss in collections associated with these cretins tends to stick in management’s minds. So they are usually reinstated. OTOH, the decent people offended by such behavior tend to make a silent exit from a poker scene that they often consider too uncivilized for their taste.

Obviously, you are a civilized and decent person who endures what goes on (although I know you fight back in your own way as often as possible). But you love poker, find it stimulating, are a winning part time player, and take the good with the bad. But, for everyone like you, there are (IMO) countless others who find poker not an important enough part of their lives to bother with given the grumps and assholes they often end up playing with on their rare visits to a card club.

I’m convinced that even in Los Angeles, other things being equal (which they are not), if one club made a long term, well thought through effort to curb bad behavior, they would eventually benefit. But they would lose customers (especially live ones) in the short term, so don’t hold your breath.

Regards,

Rick

[andyfox]

Lots of good points, Rick.

I'm by nature an introvert. This natural bent has become even more pronounced as the years go by. I go to the cardroom to have fun: winning is fun; arguing with a jerk is not.

So I think you're right that there are probably a lot of people like me who generally just watch with disdain and don't do much. I think the game calls for congeniality. After all, you're sitting in a small area with 8 (or so) other people for a long period of time. A smile and a "please" or "thank you" go a long way towards helping all have a good time. You don't necessarily have to participate in the football discussion, but it sure would make the experience more pleasant if people who didn't have anything nice to say would simply not say anything.

Compare the experience with, say, playing golf on a public course. On the first tee, you walk up, shake hands, and introduce yourself to your playing partners. When one of them does something good, you say "nice shot." When they do something bad, you say nothing. It's simply the accepted standard of behavior. Needless to say, no such standard exists in the cardroom (or at least not at Commerce).

Most of the time, a floorman's day is occupied by problems with the boisterous and aggressive players. And since, indeed, the bottom line for the casino is the bottom line, why kick out a player who's worth $30,000 or $40,000 a year to the casino because they threw some cards at a dealer, who are, in the minds of management, a dime a dozen?

[DPCondit]

Hi Rick,

These are all good points. I must say that my experiences at the Bicycle Club have been much better than at the Commerce. The Commerce just seems to have more than their share of belligerent, rude, obnoxious, drunks. While such people are generally big losers, this is also offset by the fact that they slow everything way down, and generally create a more unpleasant atmosphere.

Don

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

Wish I had more time to comment on your post as I'm soon out the door.

I want to re-emphasize that IMO, the bottom line would eventually become better if the clubs made a greater effort to weed out the jerks. Somewhere I've written (perhaps I should Google myself ;-) that a customer base in a typical card club is like a neglected rose garden. In order to make it something you could be proud of, you need to do some serious trimming. For a while, after you trim way back, your rose garden won't look like much. Then it will grow and bloom, and occasionally you need to cut off a branch or two. Eventually it will look so nice that others will come to visit.

The problem is, to implement my vision you need an owner who is willing to stand for short-term losses in order to make long-term gains.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

According to Art Sathmary the shooting incident took place around 1960 at the Rainbow Club. The result was one dead and about twenty injured. The shooter was a customer who had terminal cancer who had openly bragged at the table how he would take some people with him. He died waiting for trial.

Art called his Mom that day to say he wasn’t there and was safe. He thought taking out the windows was a good idea ;-).

Regards,

Rick

[brad]

heh, casino arizona i was playing in a low limit game (like 8 a.m. monday morning, heh) and they kick out a drunk (start serving at 6 am and i think he had been drinking night too but they close at 1 am last call for alch.)

pretty funny.

also mid limit game a vegas pro got kicked out like a year ago cause he was rude to a dealer. heh.

its really pretty funny.

i almost got kicked out once cause i was sitting next to an obnoxious drunk and i was laughing with him. (but i didnt, heh)

[HDPM]

One thing that makes me question my general cynicism about people is that not very many people go on homicide sprees when they're terminal. I would expect more people to "take a few with them" than actually happens. My first stop if I am diagnosed as terminal is for a carton of Marlboro reds, soft pack, and a Bic Lighter. I will smoke and drink whisky where I please, but I don't have any desire to cap a bunch of people, and I'm a cynic who hates people, so maybe there is hope.

[Rick Nebiolo]

HDPM,

In reading your many posts I've never had the impression that you are a "cynic who hates people" and I bet you're not. Liberals and gun control wackos maybe, but people no.

Regards,

Rick

[scalf]

high desert...actually, as humans age, in general, they get concerned about giving back, integrity, and helping others...amazing...lol...gl /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/blush.gif scalf suggests giving a swirlee to nasty people...if the first private swirlee does not work, i suggest a second public swirlee, the shame would be tooooo much...highly effective...gl

[Oski]

"I think it's an LA thing. There is very little dealer abuse at the Bay Area casinos."

I guess you've never been to the Oaks in Emeryville. - Card throwing, swearing at the dealer, players threatening each other...LOL, it's an LA thing...get over yourselves.

[Tommy Angelo]

When I say abuse, I mean both main kinds: abuse of dealers by players, and abuse of players by players.

I've read the whole thread (so far). No one touched on either of my theories, so here they go:

1) Poker rooms serve as surprisingly accurate microcosms, or reflections, of the local societies that feed them.

2) Many many players will go with the flow. If meanness exists in bulk and is tolerated, they will turn mean, sometimes, enough to tip the scales, and fuel the snowball of meanness. If meanness is not tolerated, then the middle-of-the-road players, the ones who can go either way, will feel out of place by bitching and belittling, so they don't do it, in that environment. It's a positive feedback loop situation (where positive doesn't mean "good" it just means "explosively active in the direction of what already is." Goodwill can also be fueled by a positive feedback loop, as it is, say, at Lucky Chances, where the middle-of-the-roaders, the ones who might be mean if they were in LA, aren't, because no one else is being mean).

Rick's flower garden thing, I love it. So true.

I'm always the first to blame management. But I'm also aware of the bottom line, and of the power of evolutionary pressure. That the games in LA continue to thrive, despite the meanness, tells me that allowing meanness is likely the best management policy. And as with coffee or couches or anything else, when a known product is offered, at a known price, my choice as consumer is to buy it, or not.

I stopped buying Folgers when I tasted Peet's. And I stopped buying LA-style poker when I tasted Northern California.

Tommy