JJ in EP - Draw heavy board. River Help? [Archive]

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AlphaMeridian

06-04-2005, 03:14 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 raises, Button calls, BB calls, Hero folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 21.75 BB

There are several things I want to ask about this hand, mainly in relation to SSH. First, I have an overpair in a huge pot here on the flop. However, every time I see posts about "waiting until the turn" to bet are usually met with "this wasn't the situation" or "you misapplied the concept". The table is EXTREMELY loose passive. (36% VPIP now, but that's after some of the donators have sat out for a bit)

Anyway, back to the hand. I assume the PFR is good. I'm not so sure about the rest of the streets. I bet out on the flop, but everyone definately has the odds to continue on the draw. The turn brings a moderately scary card. I bet out, and they all call. The river, OTOH, is where I might be the most confused. I bet out (which I think might have been a big mistake considering the 4 straight on the board) and I get raised. Then I'm debating calling one more in a gigantic pot. But I know that at LEAST one of the 4 people can be holding Ace-rag, not to mention I'm behind to the sixes as well. Had it been less people, is this an easy call? Is it an easy call even WITH that many people in on the river?

-Alpha

iNsChris

06-04-2005, 03:24 PM

Check/Call the flop - I play it the same besides that.

May be "scared" but id rather checked around for freeshowdown than lose 2BB's to someone holding an Ax.

Firefly

06-04-2005, 03:25 PM

PF- Standard
Flop- The pot is big and i highly doubt you can protect your hand at this point, so bet for value. You can't c/r becuase you have no clue who your going to c/r. Waiting for the turn and perhaps giving infinate odds sucks, so bet.
Turn- Same reasoning as above, pretty much. Your hand is still likely to be good. Bet for value
River- It's tough. I'd probally try to get to showdown, by check calling. Fold if two cold. Heck, the river confuses me too...

Bodhi

06-04-2005, 03:26 PM

Waiting until the turn is for when the pot is much bigger than it was here.

You played this well.

Bodhi

06-04-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check/Call the flop - I play it the same besides that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's give infinite odds to someone on a draw?

Terrible, absolutely terrible.

afk

06-04-2005, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check/Call the flop - I play it the same besides that.

May be "scared" but id rather checked around for freeshowdown than lose 2BB's to someone holding an Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unlearn this very quickly. Checking this flop is pretty bad.

I think hero played this one fine. I'm not really sure there's any other way to play it.

aK13

06-04-2005, 04:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check/Call the flop - I play it the same besides that.

May be "scared" but id rather checked around for freeshowdown than lose 2BB's to someone holding an Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unlearn this very quickly. Checking this flop is pretty bad.

I think hero played this one fine. I'm not really sure there's any other way to play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/calling flop is a disaster.

For the river, anybody check to see the action, then decide whether to call based on # of overcallers (seeing how many are possibly lurking around with A high?)

afk

06-04-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check/Call the flop - I play it the same besides that.

May be "scared" but id rather checked around for freeshowdown than lose 2BB's to someone holding an Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unlearn this very quickly. Checking this flop is pretty bad.

I think hero played this one fine. I'm not really sure there's any other way to play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/calling flop is a disaster.

For the river, anybody check to see the action, then decide whether to call based on # of overcallers (seeing how many are possibly lurking around with A high?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you might be right there. Checking the river may be better since it's quite likely someone has made a straight. Perhaps check and call one but not two? Though I'd rather not be making the 2nd or 3rd overcall either.

benkath1

06-04-2005, 04:57 PM

If your going to bet the river, call for one more. I hate these hands, but I think you made money on all streets but the river.

I would check call the river hoping for the bluff.

benkath1

06-04-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check/Call the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

U mean river, right??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Like everyone else said, unlearn this.

Jakesta

06-04-2005, 04:59 PM

Calling the river raise is very -EV. Either an Ace or a six beats Hero, and MP2 just raised after someone already called Hero's river bet.

Hero has two options on this river:

check-call
bet-fold

Bet-call is not an option.

afk

06-04-2005, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If your going to bet the river, call for one more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck! No, don't! Hero bet, got called, then got raised and then there were two cold callers. Calling one more is just throwing money away, even if the pot is big here. Hero isn't winning often enough.

SteveL91

06-04-2005, 06:40 PM

Waiting for the turn is applicable when there's a massive pot (20+ SB I'd say) and there's been a lot of raising and re-raising PF. The idea is that by waiting for the turn, you can really eviscerate the odds, whereas you wouldn't make much of a dent on the flop. A corollary to this is that your equity can have a drastic swing from the flop to the turn, so you get to cut the odds AND exploit a potentially bigger equity edge.

In this case, you don't have that. You were the only PF aggressor and as such, can't assume the flop will be bet. Checking and giving them infinite odds is a much bigger mistake; make them decide whether or not to continue.

homebrewer

06-04-2005, 06:54 PM

I think you are good pre-flop and flop. I agree with your analysis, but wonder why you played the rest of your hand the way you did.

As you say, the turn is a moderately scary card and the chances that you get all or most of the table to fold at this point is pretty small. I check/call the turn, but would consider check raising to close out other callers.

The river bet looks like you are spewing a bit. You are almost certainly beaten. You are probably up against Ace rag or some other crazy combination like 56 or 66.

no1super2001

06-04-2005, 06:56 PM

All looks good until the river. Since so many micro players will hold onto Ax until the river, I am trying to conserve a bet or two. I check/call if it is not an overcall or worse, otherwise fold.

It may be a big pot, but investing any more in it seems donkish to me.