Js Overplayed?

[JerBear77]

Crypto 1/2

Hero is CO with J /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

EP calls, MP calls, MP+1 raises, <font color="red">Hero 3-bets </font>, everyone folds to EP who calls, MP calls, MP+1 calls

<font color="green"> Figure Bigger pockets will cap here</font>

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)

EP bets, MP calls, MP+1 calls, <font color="red">Hero raises /color], called around

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

EP bets, MP calls, MP+1 calls, <font color="red"> Hero calls /color]

<font color="green">Ok.....very strange </font>

River: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

EP calls, MP calls, MP+1 calls....Hero???



Can anyone find a fold here??

[toss]

I'm not good enough to fold anywhere in this hand really.

[stoli]

Some reads would certainly be helpful here, but without any reads I'd be willing to take this to the showdown. At the turn you are getting 12 to 1... you don't have to win this hand very often for a call to be profitable. Again we don't have any reads but bigger pockets probably would've have capped pre-flop. What can you really put the ep raiser on with that board?

[JerBear77]

Does a raise on the Turn help here to possibly get people to fold? Or is that one of those "the only hands that call you are they ones that beat you"?

[Fantam]

How about raising the turn? Since MP1 raised PF he has only called which suggests it is more likely that he has something like AK or AQ than a higher pocket pair than you.

EP's turn bet looks suspicious. His flop bet could have been a draw, but the turn bet seems to suggest something better like a set. I cant see his having called with 2 pair on that board.

I think you could probably fold to a turn 3-bet from EP.

Otherwise I think you just call down, and no I dont think that you fold your overpair to a river bet.

[Fantam]

I think you just answered the question.

In my previous post I suggested raising the turn to find out where you are. This probably works ok when you are behind but loses you bets when you are ahead.

Calling to the river costs the same as raising the turn. So that when you are behind there is no difference, but when you are ahead you gain bets.

There is a good thread about WA/WB in the micro-limit section which discusses this.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2546783&amp;page=2&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1

[d10]

I would raise the turn and call down a 3 bet, raise the river again if EP just calls the turn and then donk bets the river. All raises here are for probable value.

[damaniac]

I'm not terribly sure how it loses you bets when you are ahead. If a pair or overcards folds, that's great as they are making a mistake given the size of the pot.

I also don't know about raising "to find out where you are." While information is all well and good, it is rarely worth 1 BB to find out. Now if that were a side benefit to a possible value raise, on the other hand, it's fine. But as a stand-alone reason it doesn't hold.

[Fantam]

Yes thinking about it I agree now that a turn raise is OK as you would benefit by folding out AK or AQ.

I think I was thinking of situations when you would only succeed in getting weaker hands with little chance of improving to fold by betting the turn, but that these same hands would have called another river bet.

Thats what the WA/WB thread was about.

[damaniac]

Stuff like this? (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=969383&amp; Forum=f3&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=50&amp;Main=969383&amp; Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=43&amp;daterange=1&amp;newe rval=1&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=# Post969383)

Or this? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=888296&amp;fpart= &amp;PHPSESSID=)

I need to find a good one on multiway since that changes the equation. We had a good debate over one of QTip's hands, where the board was so drawless that I considered it WA/WB even against 4 or 5 players. There was some disagreement. There has to be a better one though as we didn't fully flesh that out.