KJo , out of position. Fishy can't fold his trips

[theredpill6]

I told fishy, "congratulations " on this one. He replied that if I bet bigger on the flop, he would have folded. Why so I can telegraph that I have a good hand ? How did I play it ? Do you like the river play ?

Fishy is 50 /20 VPIP . I might lay it down on the turn to a 19/5 VPIP player but not to this guy.

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 NL (real money)


Seat 1: Bexy
Seat 2: Gaborit
Seat 3: wassdoin
Seat 4: shug2
Seat 5: Hero [ K/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Seat 6: annobon2k
Seat 7: AnnoyingPeon
Seat 8: Ninja Cuddle
Seat 9: scubasam1
Seat 10: BudMiller1
ANTES/BLINDS
Gaborit posts blind ($0.15), wassdoin posts blind ($0.25), shug2 posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
shug2 checks, Hero calls $0.25, annobon2k folds, AnnoyingPeon folds, Ninja Cuddle calls $0.25, scubasam1 calls $0.25, BudMiller1 folds, Bexy folds, Gaborit calls $0.10, wassdoin checks.

FLOP [board cards 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif ] pot=1.50
Gaborit checks, wassdoin checks, shug2 checks, Hero bets $1, Ninja Cuddle folds, scubasam1 calls $1, Gaborit folds, wassdoin folds, shug2 folds.

TURN [board cards 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif,K/images/graemlins/heart.gif]
Hero bets $2, scubasam1 bets $6, Hero calls $4.

RIVER [board cards 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif,K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Hero checks, scubasam1 bets $6, Hero calls $6.

SHOWDOWN
scubasam1 shows [ 9C,KD ]
Hero mucks cards [ KC,JH ]
scubasam1 wins $26.15.

SUMMARY
Dealer: Bexy
Pot: $27.50 | Rake: $1.35
Bexy loses $0
Gaborit loses $0.25
wassdoin loses $0.25
shug2 loses $0.25
Hero loses $13.25
annobon2k loses $0
AnnoyingPeon loses $0
Ninja Cuddle loses $0.25
scubasam1 bets $13.25, collects $26.15, net $12.90
BudMiller1 loses $0

[theredpill6]

I checked my PT stats and it does show that I'm making + .14 BB/100 on K J o over 157 times that I've gotten it so I must be doing something right with it.

However, did I use this players(fishy's) stats to justify a river call that I shouldn't have made ?

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked my PT stats and it does show that I'm making + .14 BB/100 on K J o over 157 times that I've gotten it so I must be doing something right with it.

However, did I use this players(fishy's) stats to justify a river call that I shouldn't have made ?

[/ QUOTE ]

you are weak-tight and way too results-oriented.

[theredpill6]

I'm weak-tight ?

You're gay. Now tell me what I did wrong. Quit going around name-calling and start giving some good advice.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm weak-tight ?

You're gay. Now tell me what I did wrong. Quit going around name-calling and start giving some good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

you play too tightly and passively with your good hands. stop doing that. there's your good advice.

i'd give you a better way to play this hand, but you obviously aren't ready for that as evidenced by the other hands you post and your reaction to my advice. so for now maybe i'll just give you vague criticism in the hopes that someday it might start to sink in.

if he showed KT, would you be posting this hand and saying you might have folded on the turn or asking about folding the river? thats why i called you results-oriented.

[theredpill6]

Did I play it right or not ? What a worthless forum this is.

So I should reraise all-in to his raise on the turn. That'd be really stupid. Do you see why ?

[theredpill6]

Give me a better way to play the hand you son of a bitch.

[theredpill6]

woops, wrong thread

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Did I play it right or not ? What a worthless forum this is.

So I should reraise all-in to his raise on the turn. That'd be really stupid. Do you see why ?

[/ QUOTE ]

this forum is worthless to people who aren't capable of making use of it.

you left out stack sizes which are kind of important.

like i said when you post hands and ask for specific advice you usually end up saying something like "[censored] you, i played right" so for now, you are too weak-tight and too results-oriented.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
Now tell me what I did wrong. Quit going around name-calling and start giving some good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) fold preflop. I usually hate people saying this, but UTG+1 at a full table? fold KJo.
2) flop bet = good. Bigger bet is also ok, with 6-handed flop.
3)turn: raise his 6 to 15 or so. Get it all in if you can

Please do not tell me that it would be stupid to get all the money in on the turn. Jack is not the worst kicker, and you cannot honestly be scared of a full house every time. If you wanna be results-oriented? You were ahead on the turn, so getting it all in couldn't possibly be wrong.

Also see this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2551270&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) thread, started by me. Same situation.

[theredpill6]

Hmmm....well lets think.

I bet $2 on the turn. Majority of the time what is raising me to $6 on the turn ? I disagree with putting all my money in with trips. That's dumb and the only thing that calls you is a full house usually.

Pot = $5 on the turn after my turn bet. He raises to $6 making the pot= 11 . It might barely be + EV to raise all-in to $20 there and you are assuming that the times that you pick up the pot here win you more than you lose to a full house. I don't know. I would need a computer program to figure out which play is more + EV.

[gulebjorn]

Look, if you play KJo, what are you looking for? You're scared when you hit trips, because someone might have a boat. If you hit a straight, you're probably scared of a flush or a boat. You can't play hands for full-house value. If you think you have the best hand, get the money in.

This type of logic you use makes people call you weak-tight. And i agree with them. It's not an insult, it's an analysis of your style of playing. Numerous good poker players have told you that you play weak-tight. Believe them.

Start playing some agressive, strong poker. Yes, you will lose bigger pots. You will also win bigger pots. Variance will increase. So will your profit.

Stop taking every bit of advice you read in here personal. You are not a good poker player. Neither am I. This means we make mistakes. If you cannot stand it when people point out these mistakes to you, you should not try to participate in this forum.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm....well lets think.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, the irony.

[wtfsvi]

I think you played it fine on the flop and turn. Against som 50 /20's I'll reraise the turn, and against others I'll just call ( his aggression factor and stupidity factor will do the difference probably).

I think a blocking bet will be in order against most oponents on the river though. And you have to start folding this preflop.

[theredpill6]

I might need to start folding this preflop. I agree with that. What am I looking for when I play K Jo. I'm looking to win a small pot for christ's sake. Why do I have to be all-in every god damn time I play a hand ? That isn't strong poker. That is stupid. You win big pots with full houses. You don't want to be all-in every time you get trips . Geez. What if I told you that the blinds were .10/.25 and I had a $100 stack built up and villain also had $100. Good I idea to push a 400 BB stack in the middle on the turn with trips right there ?

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
I might need to start folding this preflop. I agree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, progress.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't want to be all-in every time you get trips . Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Come again?

[ QUOTE ]
What if I told you that the blinds were .10/.25 and I had a $100 stack built up and villain also had $100. Good I idea to push a 400 BB stack in the middle on the turn with trips right there ?

[/ QUOTE ]
You should have mentioned stack sizes sooner. Don't push. But get as much in as possible, as long as you are doing the betting and he is doing the calling

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I might need to start folding this preflop. I agree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds familiar (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1625845&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

[theredpill6]

ouch. That was in January. How the hell did you find that ?

[theredpill6]

Hmmm, you know I think you are right.

Should I be folding QTs preflop ?

Hell, if I would have folded QTs and KJo tonight I would have made about $80 tonight. Instead I made $10.

[beedubblyer]

Re: river play - whatchagonnado? By this point it's obvious you've both got Ks, the question is who's got the better kicker (player with better starting requirements) and whether anyone pairs the board (utter luck).
If you'd re-raised massively on 4th street, would scubasam1 have called you? He'd have had to think hard about his kicker, which might have induced a fold before that jammy river. Presumably when he re-raised you on 4th, you were worried about YOUR kicker, and were thinking about whether he had AK or KQ (Cloutier says don't worry about what hands can beat you, trust your instinct on whether you have the best hand).
But that's a big maybe - depends on your impression of the player - and I'm sure in that situation I would have done exactly the same as you..!

[theredpill6]

Scuba would have called me. I know it. He's 50/20 VPIP. He raised me to $6 on the turn so you know he's calling the rest of his $16 or whatever he had left. There's no way he's folding and I saved about $9 there.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
Cloutier says don't worry about what hands can beat you, trust your instinct on whether you have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a piece of crap advice

[wtfsvi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
There's no way he's folding and I saved about $9 there.

[/ QUOTE ]
No you didn't. If he calls all-in on the turn for $16 more, you win $16*(41/44) = $14.9 on that turn. If you win or lose the showdown is not your problem, the poker Gods will sort it out over time. (This is how you need to think of it anyway, if you want to make money.)

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Scuba would have called me. I know it. He's 50/20 VPIP. He raised me to $6 on the turn so you know he's calling the rest of his $16 or whatever he had left. There's no way he's folding and I saved about $9 there.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that he will call with a hand like k9 is WHY you push the turn!

[rocky13]

1)The other posts are right, don't play KJo in that position, fold it preflop;
2)It seems at the lower NL levels people only seem to respect a pot size bet, less than that they think you are weak, bet the pot on the flop and certainly on the turn with the 2 hearts out there and the possible straight draw (56), all-in will make him pay if he misses plus I bet you were planning on calling the river anyway right? So why not put the pressure on him on the turn? At least reraise. Remember, in the long run you will beat him.

[iraise50]

theredpill, I'll give you some advice, as best as I can. Don't ge tupset when someone criticizes your play, especially when you are asking for advice. John Vorhuas wrote that "When you have the best of it you can not fear the worst of it". On the turn you should have bet, and bet big. I know he sucked out on you, and it is frustrating when it happens. It doesn't change that you had the best hand, and the best chances of winning and you need to maximize your expectation.

I read that post from January, and from what I can tell you are passive and don't yet stick to only quality starting hands. I think you can agree without getting upset. Although, as a NYer, I don't care if you do or not. I think that the more important thing is that you learn from this situation. If you get really aggressive on the turn, you make money in the long run. FORGET ABOUT THE SHORT TERM, which is why people keep saying you are too-results oriented. Making the quality decision is the best that you can do. You lose, after the turn only 3 times in 44. DO you know how good of a position you are in? You complained that the guy would call you. THAT'S GOOD! 93.181818 of the time you win, WHEN he calls you, and 100% of the time when he folds. Push the chips man! Of course you'll lose, even in that situation almost 7% of the time, and when he has QK, AK or pockets that made a set sometimes too. I can promise you that you'll make more money by pushing the chips in there.

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
(Cloutier says don't worry about what hands can beat you, trust your instinct on whether you have the best hand).


[/ QUOTE ]

CLOUTIER says this? This isn't exactly the impression I get from his books...

Anyway, w/ regards to this hand, and really this poster as a whole: If you're gonna react with this kind of hostility every time you receive (deserved) criticism &amp; are challenged to think critically, then I can't see what drew you to poker in the first place. You don't really display the marks of a critical thinker; you seem like you try to rely on a semi-mystical impression of what hands are "worth;" e.g. KJo, QTs, "it's stupid to get all your money in with trips," etc. It's absolutely essential to understand that your hands have entirely relative value, based on position, action, opponents' standards and tendencies, cards to come and the size of the pot. If I'm on the button against UTG Super-Rock, who's made a decent-sized raise preflop, but will autofold the flop to a push if he hasn't made a set or better and will never adjust to your play, then you're just throwing money away if you don't call/reraise, then push, with any two cards. This is a hopelessly far-fetched example, but it illustrates the extreme edge of your kind of thinking. Money is made &amp; lost, esp. in NL, postflop, not preflop. You must bet stronger with hands that are strong favorites, stop expecting the worst, and stop shitting on everybody who tells you that you have to come out of your emotional comfort zone and start playing with selective, thinking aggression. You complain about the difficulty of some of the softest tables in the game, bitch about your beats, and then tell every successful player who tries to help that they're stupid for playing winning poker. What do you expect to happen?

[ChuckyB]

Would you really care if a reraise on the turn didn't get called? You'd have won the pot.

[ChuckyB]

QTs can be a great hand...on the button...when everyone's folded to you...and you don't get raises from the blinds...and the flop include AK of your suit...or 3 Qs...or 3 tens...

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
QTs can be a great hand...on the button...when everyone's folded to you...and you don't get raises from the blinds...and the flop include AK of your suit...or 3 Qs...or 3 tens...

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? I think the best one-gap suited connector in the game is worth a little more than this. I'd feel very comfortable playing this hand vs. a standard raise in late position, in a multiway pot or vs. a weak initial raiser. Wouldn't you? How hard can it be to find out where you're at postflop?

[ChuckyB]

I would say if you're a player playing KJs from up front, 9-handed...might be best to get out of the way with QTs. Of course in depends on the opponent, the position and all that. I totally agree that you could see a cheap flop, or relatively cheap flop, with QTs.

[Student Caine]

The only reason I think that is because I am definitely weak-tight and this is how I would have played the hand. In fact, I played a hand just like this last night, with QJo...hit two J's on the flop...pussy footed around and let a guy with J6s river his 6. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Honestly I don't know that being weak-tight at the $25 level is terrible...there are so many players that will play god knows what and will not drop their hand, and will draw out on you when you have TPTK (I mean multiple player situations, where your TPTK may be the favorite in the hand, but less than 50% to win), yet you do not have to worry about playing these pairs super strong as you can make up for the lost EV by getting your nut hands payed off.

Where weak-tight starts to hurt is when you hit the $100+ levels. I have played both $100 and $200 for 8 weeks and have floated at even over those 8 weeks. Your big hands (flushes especially) do not get paid like they do at the $25 and $50 level. In addition, you throw away a lot of Pocket Pairs because so many of the pots are raised significantly preflop at those levels.

Anyways, good luck with your play, and please do not take offense at my observation - us Mice need to stick together. /images/graemlins/wink.gif