Checkup time

[scotty34]

Seeing a few other stats posts lately inspired me to do one of my own. I usually try to focus mostly on theory and good play as opposed to getting my stats the the "correct level." I really don't pay attention to my stats much at all aside from VPIP, PFR and BB/100. I thought I would post them here anyways though, just to see if there are any gaping holes that could use some correction.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/smcleod08/PTstats.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/smcleod08/FullPTStats.jpg

[Shillx]

This all looks fine.

[grjr]

I've not played Party 2/4 but people talk like it's similar to .50/1 as far as players per flop. Is this true? If so, wouldn't one be able to make more money by playing more hands than 17%?

[Shillx]

No they are not the same game. While I do not think that 17% VPIP is optimal for the 2/4 game, it isn't bad when you consider in the following factors:

a) Multi-tabling
b) Use of PT based reads only
c) Non-perfect table selection

If you picked the best possible 2/4 table and played it all the time and made detaled reads about your opponents, who knows what the "best" VPIP would be. I'm guessing that for someone who just plays 1 good table and really pays attention on that table, imo the most lucrative VPIP would be 20-25% depending on how well he plays. For all practical reasons, playing at 18% might cost the hero some EV, but that is made up in the addition of extra tables.

I had a 50k hand stretch at 5/10 with a VPIP of 11.7% and won at a fairly decent rate....just to give you some perspective here.

Brad

[aK13]

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This all looks fine.

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Blind steal more /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[scotty34]

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This all looks fine.

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Blind steal more /images/graemlins/cool.gif

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That is actually a good point. I don't think I do steal enough, as I usually have fairly strong hands to do it. At this point I usually restrict it to (from CO and Button, I'm tighter from MP3) any PP, QJ+, QTs+, KT+, K9s+, Axs, A6o+. I would imagine that this range could be profitably expanded quite a bit.

[Nick Royale]

You could rasie a little more preflop, win a little more often at showdown and maybe attempt to steal more blinds. But your stats look fine.

These posts are pretty useless nowadays. This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2129886&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) is the reason.

[scotty34]

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You could rasie a little more preflop, win a little more often at showdown and maybe attempt to steal more blinds. But your stats look fine.

These posts are pretty useless nowadays. This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2129886&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) is the reason.

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That is a pretty impressive and well done post. I really should read the SSH forum more. btspider actually has a similar section to that done in the micro FAQ. The reason I posted it is for some of the stats whizzes who are able to look at all of them, and understand how they interact and depend on each other. Some people can identify things that a range of numbers cannot show you. I do agree for the most part though.

[shadow29]

I have no idea how people play like this.

It looks good, though. You are definetly missing some expectation from your low vpip and low pfr. Moreover, your ATSB is really low for 2/4.

You might be running a little cold. But I think that if your vpip goes up (and therefore your pfr goes up) your winrate would go up. Also, you seem a little too tight from the sb.

[scotty34]

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I have no idea how people play like this.

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What exactly did you mean by this comment?

Also, I don't really think that it's because I've been running cold that my numbers are a little low. I have changed my style of play a fair bit over those 20K hands. The last 10K hands my VPIP/PFR are 18/9, my VPSB is 30 and my ATSB is 25.5. I had only played about 15K hands lifetime before moving to 2/4, so I'm thinking I was probably a little weak-tight for the first 10K.

My W$SD over that stretch is only 49.6 however. I'm not sure if this is an indication of running cold, or if I am calling too often on the river when I am clearly beaten. Probably a combination of both.

[Nick Royale]

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That is a pretty impressive and well done post. I really should read the SSH forum more. btspider actually has a similar section to that done in the micro FAQ. The reason I posted it is for some of the stats whizzes who are able to look at all of them, and understand how they interact and depend on each other. Some people can identify things that a range of numbers cannot show you. I do agree for the most part though.

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I didn't intend to pick on your post. By reading Ishmaels post you won't get any discussion, that's true. But I think the best way to get a discussion is to compare your numbers with that post, see where it differs, ask yourself what the reason might be and analyse that part of your game. Then post your stats along with your thoughts and you'll get a discussion going in no time (post some hands along with the stats you find interesting).

I tried to figure out why my vpip is only ~14% at 3/6 so I analysed and posted the hands I thought was marginal preflop. It worked great for me.

Personally I don't mind stats posts at all. I actually like giving comments on stats, but as you can see from the response my analyse usually have no depth at all since I don't how you play by looking at your vpip pfr etc. I agree though that a skilled player can see how different numbers interact, but usually you won't get those comments by just posting your numbers. For example you might find lost vpip in that you don't defend your blind enough. A low pfr can be caused by not taking advantage of position (steals and isolation plays). Low river aggression often comes from inability of making slim value bets (a thing I'm working on right now, I've become afraid of value betting on higher levels).

One thing I would like to see is your positional stats. It's almost never posted when players posts stats, but IMO probably one of the most important stats and also the stats you can tell the most from without being given anything else than numbers. Could you add the positional stats? I think I might find the lost % in pfr there. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[scotty34]

Done. This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for, thank you. As I pointed out, I really don't look at my stats much at all, and instead try and focus on the theory behind my plays, and what is the best play. However, an analysis of positional play would probably be very useful. I really don't know much at all about how these stats should look, but just from a quick glance my UTG+2 (5 OTB) looks like a bit of an anomaly.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/smcleod08/PositionStats.jpg

[Shillx]

1) You have some understanding of position, but you don't fully get it.

2) Get looser as your position improves. Your VPIP is pretty much the same from each hole, which isn't optimal.

3) Raise more as your position improves. My PFR from the BUTTON ---> 6 are 13.4/12.2/11.6/11/11/9.6/7.4.

4) Raise more from the blinds. My BB raise is 6.8% and SB raise is 8.8%. Also, you might want to take more flops from the BB. You are almost always getting big odds to try and take a flop with suited cards/pair, so it is often times correct to do so.

5) Coldcall more on the button. I don't know how important this is but you clearly don't do it enough.

Brad

[shadow29]

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I have no idea how people play like this.

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What exactly did you mean by this comment?

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17/8/2.5 TAG.

This never worked for me. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, it's just that I can't imagine only raising 8% of the time or not having a >3 AF.

[scotty34]

As I pointed out in one of my replies, I have made fairly significant changes to my playing style around the 10K mark, so I'm not sure how well those 20K stats reflects how I play now. I really should have played a bunch more hands, and then omitted the first 10K before making this post. Out of curiousity though, I will post my latest 10K hands by position. Does this look closer to the right track? My stats from 5 OTB are still confusing me. My VPIP as well as my winrate look really out of place relative to the other positions, and I don't understand how/why that is happening.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/smcleod08/10Kposition.jpg

[Shillx]

>3 AF

This stat has little to do with how aggressive you are. Most people who have big aggression numbers actually are not very aggressive at all. Think about it this way...

Anyone can be aggressive with stuff like sets, 2-pair, flush draws, TPTK, etc. All of this stuff will get your AF to about about two. The only way to get it higher is to:

a) Take stabs at pots with nothing in the hopes that everyone folds (this is dumb against calling stations).

b) Make lots of thin bets and raises when you suspect that you have an edge (this is very hard to do and if you do this, your winrate will be through the roof).

c) Fold all marginal hands as the default play. This is how most people get their AF up, but it has nothing to do with aggressive play. All you do is fold instead of call when you don't have a decent hand. I tend to call as a default, as long as the pot is pretty big. Lots of good things can happen from calling (you can find a redraw, the other guy might not bet again and you get a free card, etc.)

d) Blow people away when you have a good hand and they have nothing. A lot of my calling comes from when I think people are bluffing. That takes down my AF, but it really helps my EV since I get him to put bets in drawing thin or dead. People who don't employ this should read "Waiting to Raise" in HEPFAP since it comes up quite often.

As a sidebar, in NLHE, people will very often call a PF raise in the blind HU and then move all-in on the flop if they think that the flop missed the pre-flop raiser (it will be a pot-sized bet or more so you have to have a hand to call here). This is ALMOST ALWAYS a bluff and if you have something, you should call everytime. Well the same thing appplies to LHE. When a guy calls your PFR in the BB and then leads the flop, he is almost always bluffing. Let him throw his money away.

Brad

Edit - Also, keen players will notice what you are doing if tend not to call, and they might try to run you over since you tend to fold if your hand isn't worth a raise.

[scotty34]

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I have no idea how people play like this.

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What exactly did you mean by this comment?

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17/8/2.5 TAG.

This never worked for me. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, it's just that I can't imagine only raising 8% of the time or not having a >3 AF.

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Oh ok, I see what you are saying. I would actually like to up those numbers myself, but I am really having trouble finding where to do it. When I first started 2/4 though, I was 16/6 for the first little while. I would almost never steal, and would only raise quite strong hands (AJ, KQs, ATs, TT and higher). I wouldnt adjust my standards based on position at all, and just stuck to raising strong hands when I got them. I suppose it will all just come with experience, and learning what I can profitably do as I play more and more (I've only played aroun 45-50K hands lifetime).

The problem with this is I am trying to move up fairly quickly, and every time I go up to a new level, I instinctively tighten up. I was 15/9 when I played 3/6 for a while. I really wanted to play a lot more hands than that, but I just couldn't find spots where I felt comfortable.

[Nick Royale]

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I really don't know much at all about how these stats should look, but just from a quick glance my UTG+2 (5 OTB) looks like a bit of an anomaly.

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The coclusion to draw from this must be to play all your hands from UTG, no? It seems like you're playing them well /images/graemlins/wink.gif


It seems like Shillx already have pointed out the most to be commented:

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1) You have some understanding of position, but you don't fully get it.

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Agree. There are quite a lot to work on what comes to using your position to attack blinds and isolate weak limpers. FWIW our pfr from UTG is about the same. Yet I have ~11% pfr in total and you ~8.5%.


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2) Get looser as your position improves. Your VPIP is pretty much the same from each hole, which isn't optimal.

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You actually have a highe vpip from UTG than from button. This is a HUGE leak. From button your vpip should be at very least 20%. You can limp a lot of hands here. If it's multiway many speculative hands can be added. If you're 1st or 2nd in it should pretty much always be for a raise (if you plan to play the hand that is).


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3) Raise more as your position improves. My PFR from the BUTTON ---> 6 are 13.4/12.2/11.6/11/11/9.6/7.4.


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Oui. My numbers: BUTTON ---> 6 are 15.6/13.6/12.4/12.1/9.2/8.7/8.9
And I'm confident those numbers could and should be higher. It's depending on how well you play postflop though. For now these numbers are probably fine for me.


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4) Raise more from the blinds. My BB raise is 6.8% and SB raise is 8.8%. Also, you might want to take more flops from the BB. You are almost always getting big odds to try and take a flop with suited cards/pair, so it is often times correct to do so.


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My SB raise is 8.6% and BB 10.3%. This is something I don't want to comment any further since I'm not sure what they should be and what why. I can only say I often raise from BB when SB limps. In general Q-high and better. Add to that hands like JT/J9/98s and so on. It's also depending on how well SB is playing, of course. If he's weak I would probably raise almost any 2. If he's tricky I get a little bit more conservative. Some players tend to go beserk when it comes to battle between blinds. Seems like I commented it further anyway /images/graemlins/laugh.gif


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5) Coldcall more on the button. I don't know how important this is but you clearly don't do it enough.


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Also true.


To comment what hands to raise from late position I use to give QTo as a borderline. Most often I raise it 2nd in from CO and always from button. As always it's depending on who limps. I could go on with examples like this forever, but the best thing for you is to post hands.

I like to do it this way:
Preflop limping quiz (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=253 5387&Forum=All_Forums&Words=quiz&Searchpage=0&Limi t=25&Main=2535387&Search=true&where=sub&Name=18106 &daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&olde rtype=&bodyprev=#Post2535387)
Preflop quiz #2 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=254 1785&Forum=All_Forums&Words=quiz&Searchpage=0&Limi t=25&Main=2541785&Search=true&where=sub&Name=18106 &daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&olde rtype=&bodyprev=#Post2541785)

You could do something similar, you'll probably get a lot of good comments.

[Nick Royale]

This is definately closer to what it should be. Still there are some adjustments to make. The vpip from button haven't increased enough and in relation to UTG it's very low. Your pfr looks much better, but could increase, especially from the 3 latest positions.

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My stats from 5 OTB are still confusing me. My VPIP as well as my winrate look really out of place relative to the other positions, and I don't understand how/why that is happening.

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It's hard to analyse, I have a theory though:
- Personally I tend to limp speculative hands like JTs/44 from UTG, but fold them in UTG+2 after 2 folds (if I limp 44 from UTG is table dependant). This is pretty automatic for me and I don't know if it's good. I don't want to limp them UTG+2 after 2 folds because it's not as likely to become multiway anymore and I might get isolated by a LP when he plans to enter the pot 2nd in.

That point might explain why the vpip is low (I don't know if my theory applies on your play though), but not on the won $. Over 1000 hands it's probably variance. The only other thing it could be (as I can think of) is that your play would gain by playing less hands (ie you're missplaying the hands you don't play in UTG+2 when you play them from other positions) but I seriously doubt that. You've probably gotten lucky, 1000 hands isn't that much.

[Nick Royale]

I agree with this. I can't imagine getting my AF over 3, and I don't thing I need to.

[Nick Royale]

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The problem with this is I am trying to move up fairly quickly, and every time I go up to a new level, I instinctively tighten up. I was 15/9 when I played 3/6 for a while. I really wanted to play a lot more hands than that, but I just couldn't find spots where I felt comfortable.

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You don't know what tight is dude. When I moved to 3/6 (not long ago) I was 13/11.3. Raising 87% of the hands I played, that's not good play /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'm always having the same problem as you when moving up in limits, I start to play awfully tight. It only takes a couple of session before I'm back to my normal self again. (still a touch too tight)

[grjr]

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As I pointed out in one of my replies, I have made fairly significant changes to my playing style around the 10K mark, so I'm not sure how well those 20K stats reflects how I play now. I really should have played a bunch more hands, and then omitted the first 10K before making this post. Out of curiousity though, I will post my latest 10K hands by position. Does this look closer to the right track? My stats from 5 OTB are still confusing me. My VPIP as well as my winrate look really out of place relative to the other positions, and I don't understand how/why that is happening.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/smcleod08/10Kposition.jpg

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Here are my position stats for the last 11K hands (.50/1). I realize you can't play this loose at 2/4 but I think there are some things worth looking at here. Like others have said you need to loosen up as your position gets better. Look how many more hands I play towards the button.

The other thing is the blinds. I think almost everyone here loses too much money in the blinds. Call more raises with suited connectors when there are 2 or more other callers. Don't throw that blind money away without a fight.

Also, in the BB without a raise don't be so prone to throw away draws on the flop. If there are 3 or 4 people calling the flop you probably have enough pot odds + implied odds for even a gutshot draw. Don't forget to add in outs for back door draws. That can often turn a fold into a solid call. You can't win if you fold.

I add 2 outs for a BDFD (most add 1 to 1.5) and depending on the configuration of the BDSD I add anywhere from .5 to 1.5 outs. I call a LOT of flops with only BDFD+BDSD. If you miss on the turn you're only out 1 SB. But many times you'll hit a card on the turn that helps both draws and puts you in really solid position.

Overall, I bet if you took our two sets of stats and averaged them out you would have a pretty solid game for 2/4. It's something to think about anyways.

http://home.satx.rr.com/alphadeals/PositionStatsLast11K.jpg