Wynn $4/$8 - bet and four raises issue

[mr giles]

I am learning how to play the 4 raises game, having by far most of my experience at bet and 3.

Game is $4/$8 at Wynn ($2/$4 blinds.) I am button with KT clubs. 6 limpers, I limp, blinds limp, flop is AcKs8c. Action checks to MP1 who bets, MP2 calls, I raise, BB calls 2 cold, MP1 reraises, MP2 folds, action is to me.

BB will strangely call any number of bets on the flop for any draw including gutshots but often give up on the turn. MP1 is semi-loose but VERY aggressive.

What is my action? I'm fairly certain MP1 will re-raise if I raise. Do I want to put in 4, maybe 5 bets with 2nd pair, mid kicker, and nut flush draw? I'm positive BB will simply call behind if I do, not certain about another 2 cold.

Since we were now 3 handed, I decided to call. One argument for raising is I might be able to knock out KQ/KJ for some players in the BB but not this one. I plan to raise the turn with any K,T,Q,J, or club, call anything else, fold river if unimproved. How did I do? Note that in a bet+3 raises game I would certainly have capped the flop.

Jason

[WillyTrailer]

Raise for value, not to get people to fold. If he has one of the hands you hope to get folded and he folds that's great. Otherwise you're still making money!
Considering that MP1 is very aggressive, you're probably ahead of him even though he MIGHT have a bigger pair at the moment you're most likely the favorite to win hand at this point so you're making money off of everything that goes into the pot at this point!

-WT

(note that it is possible that you're a slight dog, but even if that is the case, then the over call is more than making up for it)

[mr giles]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise for value, not to get people to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it would be a value raise, but where do you stop, depending on the game? I also play in a bet+5 raises casino. What is the play then? Do I really want to make a habit of putting in 5 and 6 bets as a probable 2-1 dog with only one other player subsidizing me? That is what is troubling me. If we were going to the turn 4 or 5 handed I don't mind getting to a 5 or 6 cap.

[WillyTrailer]

to which hands that you're opponent is likely to have are you a 2:1 dog???

you're only a dog, and a slight one at that to A8, AT and 88 (ok, not soooo slight to 88). it's rather unlikely that the aggressive opponent has AK or AA as you would have heard about it preflop. Since chances are pretty slim that he has either of those two holdings I'm pushing my edge here. Even if it's heads up I'll put in a few more bets . Now if he wanted to go for a lot more bets I might start to get scared of 88, but I'm not slowing down at this point because of the off chance that a VERY aggressive opponent has 88. I'm taking the money from him now while I likely have an edge.

The point is that if he has an Ace with any kicker other than 8 or K or T then you have the best hand and you should get as much money as possible in. now with your overcaller on the flop, you're guaranteeing that this raise is plus EV so throw it in.

Don't stop. Get it. Get it.

-WT

[Vote4Pedro]

First off I think you have to raise it up preflop...as for the flop I'd be ramming and jamming especially considering the reads you have on both players.

[Emoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Do I want to put in 4, maybe 5 bets with 2nd pair, mid kicker, and nut flush draw?
Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't read the rest of the thread. the answer here is yes. you were 3-handed. just the flush draw is good enough to raise for value with the button. since your ten outs may be tainted feel free to just call it 11 outs. even so, raise.

[damaniac]

I concur with the consensus. You would be more or less EV neutral with just the nut flush draw (assuming no set), but with a pair as well, you are making money on every bet that goes into the pot unless someone has a set. However, since the pot is now pretty big, getting someone to fold isn't bad either. Your two-pair completes gutshots, and if no one has that draw (which they aren't folding at any rate), getting KQ/KJ to fold is huge, not only because it cleans up your K outs, but also prevents redraws if you make two pair.

On a side note, I'm terribly certain how this differs from the standard bet and 3 raises, other than, at a certain point, your opponent reraising constantly makes it more likely he has a set.

Also, I like raising preflop.