Did I butcher KK?

[adsman]

The table was tight as we were all feeding off the same fish. UTG+1 is the fish in question. The others were TAG's. The hand before this I won with JJ and the hand before that I pulled a healthy pot with KQs. So they were all wary, apart from the fish.

I won't write why I played it like this. Would you play it the same, and if not, why?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

[Jakesta]

I don't get it. Why not raise the flop, and get more money out of the fishah?

[lionhorse]

I think a raise on the flop is in order. Calling or folding on the river is debatable, but BB most likely has you beat, I probably would have called anyway.

[adsman]

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I don't get it. Why not raise the flop, and get more money out of the fishah?

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My thinking was that my hand was looking pretty vulnerable on the flop. And the early position player betting out meant that I couldn't protect. So I figured to wait for the turn for a blank and then hit them with a raise. Unfortunately the turn was not a blank. I took the free card like a girl. I really fcuked this up, didn't I?

[aK13]

Raise flop -- Bet turn -- Value bet river (this is how I envision the hand going).

btw, how'd CHUMP go for ya?

[aK13]

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I don't get it. Why not raise the flop, and get more money out of the fishah?

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My thinking was that my hand was looking pretty vulnerable on the flop. And the early position player betting out meant that I couldn't protect. So I figured to wait for the turn for a blank and then hit them with a raise. Unfortunately the turn was not a blank. I took the free card like a girl. I really fcuked this up, didn't I?

[/ QUOTE ]

With BB being the possible bettor on the turn as well, there's no way to protect your hand here, so just raise for value.

[Jakesta]

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I don't get it. Why not raise the flop, and get more money out of the fishah?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking was that my hand was looking pretty vulnerable on the flop. And the early position player betting out meant that I couldn't protect. So I figured to wait for the turn for a blank and then hit them with a raise. Unfortunately the turn was not a blank. I took the free card like a girl. I really fcuked this up, didn't I?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was really weak-tight, man.

This is not a bad flop for you. It could be a lot worse. Any Jack will give you the straight, and since you have two Kings, it's unlikely that you will be splitting. I put BB on a Q here with a decent kicker. I don't want to say QJ specifically, but it certainly could be QJ. If he's a TAG then maybe he has QJs, and he turned the straight? How far off am I?

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise flop -- Bet turn -- Value bet river (this is how I envision the hand going).

btw, how'd CHUMP go for ya?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still in amazingly enough. Gotta play sexypanda but if I manage to scrape past him then bottomset is waiting for me. urk.

[adsman]

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I don't get it. Why not raise the flop, and get more money out of the fishah?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking was that my hand was looking pretty vulnerable on the flop. And the early position player betting out meant that I couldn't protect. So I figured to wait for the turn for a blank and then hit them with a raise. Unfortunately the turn was not a blank. I took the free card like a girl. I really fcuked this up, didn't I?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was really weak-tight, man.

This is not a bad flop for you. It could be a lot worse. Any Jack will give you the straight, and since you have two Kings, it's unlikely that you will be splitting. I put BB on a Q here with a decent kicker. I don't want to say QJ specifically, but it certainly could be QJ. If he's a TAG then maybe he has QJs, and he turned the straight? How far off am I?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not far off, unfortunately. I played every hand in this session really well, but there's no point posting the good hands is there? /images/graemlins/grin.gif This was a total screw-up. Villian didn't have QJ. It was worse.

[Jakesta]

TT? Nah, I don't think so. A TAG would prob 3bet that. My other quess is Q9, but it doesn't seem like a TAG would play that to a raise unless it was suited. I guess if he had that then he boated up on the river.

My two other guesses are Q9s and 99, with Q9s being more likely. Maybe the turn froze him up but then he boated/quaded on the river so he bet.

[adsman]

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TT? Nah, I don't think so. A TAG would prob 3bet that. My other quess is Q9, but it doesn't seem like a TAG would play that to a raise unless it was suited. I guess if he had that then he boated up on the river.

My two other guesses are Q9s and 99, with Q9s being more likely. Maybe the turn froze him up but then he boated/quaded on the river so he bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you call the river?

[Jakesta]

Well I would have played the hand differently, and as Ak13 said, if checked to on the turn I would have bet, and if checked to on the river I would have value bet as well. I would probably call a check-raise, but not be happy about it.

The way you played it, yeah, I call the river bet from BB. So what did he have? Q9s? T9s? I'm puzzled.

[adsman]

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Well I would have played the hand differently, and as Ak13 said, if checked to on the turn I would have bet, and if checked to on the river I would have value bet as well. I would probably call a check-raise, but not be happy about it.

The way you played it, yeah, I call the river bet from BB. So what did he have? Q9s? T9s? I'm puzzled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before you laugh at me and tell me what a diickhead I was just remember ... we all make silly mistakes, right?

Villian had AQ. I folded the winner. I deserved to fold it though as I played like a total coward.

[aK13]

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Well I would have played the hand differently, and as Ak13 said, if checked to on the turn I would have bet, and if checked to on the river I would have value bet as well. I would probably call a check-raise, but not be happy about it.

The way you played it, yeah, I call the river bet from BB. So what did he have? Q9s? T9s? I'm puzzled.

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Before you laugh at me and tell me what a diickhead I was just remember ... we all make silly mistakes, right?

Villian had AQ. I folded the winner. I deserved to fold it though as I played like a total coward.

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Hands like this let you know you probably should take a break /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Jakesta]

Sucks, man. I did it once tonight, but it was in a protected pot, with two fishahs in there acting as implicit colluders.

This is why you must establish aggression on the flop.

There is one main advantage to this:

The flop bets are 1/2 the size of the turn bets, as you know. By being aggressive on the flop you can intimidate the players with your good hands on the cheap, and get them to settle down. Then, you can put in one bet on the turn and take a free showdown if a scare card hits on the river, rather than facing a river bet from a TAG on a paired and very connected board.

The flop is the time to go crazy with overpairs.

[adsman]

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Well I would have played the hand differently, and as Ak13 said, if checked to on the turn I would have bet, and if checked to on the river I would have value bet as well. I would probably call a check-raise, but not be happy about it.

The way you played it, yeah, I call the river bet from BB. So what did he have? Q9s? T9s? I'm puzzled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before you laugh at me and tell me what a diickhead I was just remember ... we all make silly mistakes, right?

Villian had AQ. I folded the winner. I deserved to fold it though as I played like a total coward.

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Hands like this let you know you probably should take a break /images/graemlins/frown.gif

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I left the table 2 hands later. What the hell, I needed to feed the cat anyway.

[DMBFan23]

I think you should raise the flop. not only do you likely have the best hand (there are a LOT of draws for BB to be betting, or he could be betting a lone Q) but you have a ton of outs against two pair, a set, or even a made straight. you'll win this pot way more than 25% of the time.

the question then becomes, can you make more by waiting for the turn. IMO no one bets the turn again into 4 players with a draw, so there that goes. I think I'd rather raise the flop while gutshots, etc, blah blah will pay for it.

on the turn, given the action how it is, you really really need to bet. has anyone suggested two pair by their postflop play? sometimes, VERY occasionally you get slowplayed here but most often you are protecting the best hand. that's pretty vital in this decent sized pot, especially given the drawy board.

river is a call IMO, you just beat way too much and you have vastly under-represented your hand until now, theres no indication anyone has KK beat.

[Shillx]

Hmmmm interesting. The 1st thing that you have to do when BB bets the flop is put him on a hand. Since he is a TAG, here is what I'm thinking...

Set, straight, flush draw/straight draw, 2 pair

If he was betting either a straight or a straight draw on the flop, checking the turn is a very novice play. Certainly not TAG-like imo. A set is certainly possible, though his turn check is again somewhat questionable. While I would bet again on 4th street with a set, I can see why many people would not. One of the biggest reasons is to prevent a hand like AK or KQ or something from getting a free draw at us. So while it is questionable, it certainly can't be ruled out.

When he bets the river, a flush draw is almost certainly not a possible hand. He isn't going to bluff into 3 others on this board with a busted draw if he is a TAG. So his river bet means that either he filled up or he is betting 2-pair. I don't really think that he just has a queen in this spot (thought I guess it can't be discarded totally). According to Bayes, your hand is exactly a 2:1 dog against TT/99/QTs/Q9s/T9s. There is 1 combo of each 99/T9s/Q9s, 3 of TT and 3 of QTs (this comes out to 6:3 against you having him beat). You are getting 8.25:1 to make the river overcall. Since UTG+1 figures to be putting in dead money, it looks an easy call.

Brad

[ClaytonN]

I'd rather know I'm behind on the flop by raising than find myself hopelessly lost on the turn and river calling bets.

[Hojglad]

Before reading anything else:

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River: (6.25 BB) 9 (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

[/ QUOTE ]
This makes me vomit in my mouth.

Edit: I just saw that you wanted us to reply why we wouldn't play it the same. I honestly think that you are good much more often than 1 in 8 times on the river. That's why I don't fold. I probably raise the flop too. There is no way in hell top pair three bets this flop. Also, that river does wonders for you against crap hands like QT. There has been no aggression. A good player does not let the turn get checked through if he has a straight. Hell, when it's checked to me on the turn, I think I bet and fold to a raise.

[iNsChris]

Preflop: Raise fine.
Flop: RAISE.
Turn: BET/Raise

River: BB bets again after a 9falls, Maybe trips but if you had raised the flop/Betted turn he might not be there.

So bet the river but now its prob best to call unless hes a "fish" then raise. If reraised, Then call.