Play along: a middle pair hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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jason_t

06-04-2005, 02:18 AM

Middle pair is tough to play, especially without reads. Here we have one with a draw heavy board. Let's do a play along.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, I raise, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, I....

SmileyEH

06-04-2005, 02:20 AM

I call, raise a non-club turn and check behind on the river.

(really drunk right now)

-SmileyEH

rmarotti

06-04-2005, 02:20 AM

Call with the intention of raising a non club turn.

chief444

06-04-2005, 02:21 AM

I'd raise. But that's all I'm playing for now. Time for bed.

chief444

06-04-2005, 02:22 AM

I guess it is time for bed because I like that line better.

Isura

06-04-2005, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Call with the intention of raising a non club turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising a K or T of clubs.

rmarotti

06-04-2005, 02:24 AM

What's your river plan if 3-bet?

Isura

06-04-2005, 02:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What's your river plan if 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call down unless an ugly river card comes (4 to a straight, 4th club).

jason_t

06-04-2005, 02:49 AM

So everyone's formulated a plan. Let's go.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, I raise, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, I call, BB folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, I....

bakku

06-04-2005, 02:53 AM

uhh..that looks like a non-club turn

jason_t

06-04-2005, 02:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
uhh..that looks like a non-club turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, once everyone has formulated the plan, the turn isn't so interesting. So let's just go to the river.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, I raise, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, I call, BB folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, I raise, UTG+1 calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, I....

this guy

06-04-2005, 03:09 AM

Check behind? I can't see a lot of worse hands calling here.

Moozh

06-04-2005, 03:17 AM

Can you tell us anything about UTG+1?

rmarotti

06-04-2005, 03:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell us anything about UTG+1?

[/ QUOTE ]

jason_t

06-04-2005, 03:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell us anything about UTG+1?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

toss

06-04-2005, 03:27 AM

Eh I'll check behind. But my river aggro is 1.73.

Only hand I can really see calling is JT.

Moozh

06-04-2005, 03:31 AM

Unknown, I probably check.

Jeff W

06-04-2005, 06:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Unknown, I probably check.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2/4 must be significantly tougher than when I played in it.

I would raise the flop and bet the river. I expect quite a few worse hands to call.

Moozh

06-04-2005, 06:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unknown, I probably check.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2/4 must be significantly tougher than when I played in it.

I would raise the flop and bet the river. I expect quite a few worse hands to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may also want to consider that the person giving advice is significantly weaker than you were when you played 2/4 and that the game is similar to what you remember.

jason_t

06-04-2005, 06:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unknown, I probably check.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2/4 must be significantly tougher than when I played in it.

I would raise the flop and bet the river. I expect quite a few worse hands to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you advocate raising the flop instead of waiting for a safe turn?

Jeff W

06-04-2005, 06:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Why do you advocate raising the flop instead of waiting for a safe turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise the flop because I'd like to face BB with 2 bets cold if he has a hand like J8 or A2. I also give little credit to UTG+1's bet--I don't assume he needs even as good a hand as a flush draw to make this bet. KJ, J9, JT among even weaker hands I would expect to make this bet.

Waiting till the turn seems unnecessarily fancy to me.

As I said though, I have not played 2/4 in a long time and I may not have a good handle on game conditions.

Michael Davis

06-04-2005, 07:38 AM

"I would raise the flop because I'd like to face BB with 2 bets cold"

I agree. I don't see the point of waiting until the turn here. Raise the flop, bet the turn, check or bet the river depending on what's happened.

Waiting until the turn to raise is something to do when you have a ton of opponents, a fair number that will call the flop raise, or when you are last to act. When you are in the middle of a threehanded pot I can't see many good reasons to wait until the turn.

-Michael

jason_t

06-04-2005, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why do you advocate raising the flop instead of waiting for a safe turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise the flop because I'd like to face BB with 2 bets cold if he has a hand like J8 or A2. I also give little credit to UTG+1's bet--I don't assume he needs even as good a hand as a flush draw to make this bet. KJ, J9, JT among even weaker hands I would expect to make this bet.

Waiting till the turn seems unnecessarily fancy to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why this isn't a good example of waiting for a safe turn card when my equity increases by a lot (assuming my hand is best)?

Michael Davis

06-04-2005, 07:42 AM

"Can you explain why this isn't a good example of waiting for a safe turn card when my equity increases (assuming my hand is best)?"

Because the pot isn't so big that the BB will be right to call two bets but he will be right to peel with his weaker hands for one bet. It's only a threehanded pot, so your equity is going to increase more just by getting one opponent who might have outs to fold than by waiting for a safe turn card to push him out. There's too much of a chance of getting him to fold right now to wait.

-Michael

jason_t

06-04-2005, 07:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"Can you explain why this isn't a good example of waiting for a safe turn card when my equity increases (assuming my hand is best)?"

Because the pot isn't so big that the BB will be right to call two bets but he will be right to peel with his weaker hands for one bet. It's only a threehanded pot, so your equity is going to increase more just by getting one opponent who might have outs to fold than by waiting for a safe turn card to push him out. There's too much of a chance of getting him to fold right now to wait.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I understand this. Let's say the hand was HU. Do you wait for the turn there?

Michael Davis

06-04-2005, 08:20 AM

Well HU is a totally different ballgame, so I don't know. My plan here heads up usually doesn't involve a lot of turn raising, though. Plan #1 is to raise the flop and calldown the whole way if he comes back, since raising the flop is often representing a weak hand and he might play accordingly. If I don't raise the flop I'm usually not raising at all with middle pair, I'll just make sure one bet goes in on every street. With top pair I would often wait until the river to pop it. Basically it depends on whether my opponent will go to war on the flop.

So I have no answer for you except HU it's more important to mix up (not really true in a full game), and truthfully your options for how to play the hand don't make that much of an EV difference unless you fold too much.

-Michael