Play along with Chesspain's JJ vs. two TAGs... [Archive]

chesspain

06-03-2005, 08:48 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Both players had TAG stats after approx. thirty hands.

Preflop: chesspain is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, chesspain...?

Entity

06-03-2005, 08:52 PM

I wouldn't hate folding here, to be honest. 30 hands doesn't provide much of a read, so I'd probably do the following:

1) Fold. Out of position against a PF 3-bet, though it could be a slightly lighter 3-bet than normal, and in the worst position.

2) Call. See if original raiser caps. Play flop/turn accordingly.

3) Cap. I don't really like this option here but it may allow you to get HU against a player with overs.

Rob

Chairman Wood

06-03-2005, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Both players had TAG stats after approx. thirty hands.

Preflop: chesspain is SB with J, J.
4 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, chesspain...?

[/ QUOTE ]
ohhh tough... If initial raiser were EP this is a fold. hmm.... go ahead and cap.

KornGeek

06-03-2005, 09:05 PM

I would most likely call.

I'm not folding because JJ has a decent chance against any other starting hand. Also, stats for only 30 hands aren't necessarily statistically valid.

I'm not raising because they seem unlikely to fold, and it seems unlikely that I would have the best hand at this point. The only thing I stand to gain is respect on later rounds, but at this point I'd rather have them less afraid of me if I do hit my hand.

Even though MP2 is likely to cap, I'm calling.

Entity

06-03-2005, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even though MP2 is likely to cap,

[/ QUOTE ]

MP2 isn't really all that likely to cap.

Rob

CallMeIshmael

06-03-2005, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If initial raiser were EP this is a fold. hmm.... go ahead and cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought this as well.

KornGeek

06-03-2005, 09:15 PM

My personal experience (based on a limited quantity of live play, so take it with a grain of salt) is that when a player raises and gets re-raised pre-flop, he tends to cap it. Especially when you have two aggressive players. It seems to be more of a pissing contest than solid poker, but from what I've seen, it happens about 7 out of 10 times.

einbert

06-03-2005, 09:15 PM

Given the SB structure and your position and the information you have, I am very inclined to fold.

I think just calling is a fairly close second choice.

bozlax

06-03-2005, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...it seems unlikely that I would have the best hand at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're going to put 3 bets into a pot currently containing 6 bets to draw to your 2 outs? I'm afraid that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

My inclination is to fold, but I've been told I sometimes (like infinity minus one percent of the time) play weak-tight.

Entity

06-03-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to be more of a pissing contest than solid poker, but from what I've seen, it happens about 7 out of 10 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say he's openraising with 77-AA, A8s+, ATo+, KJ+, KTs+, QJs+. Do you really think he's capping with 70% of those hands?

You're not dealing with random players here or robots, or players that do things for no particular reason. Most TAGs are capping QQ-AA, AKs, and possibly AK. JJ is also possible but not nearly 100% of the time. That doesn't nearly constitute 70% of the hands that he originally raised with.

Rob

S_Perry

06-03-2005, 09:21 PM

How tight have you been, how tenacious are they postflop with overcards, how have they been adjusting for position with their opening & 3-betting. Your decision should incorporate all of these, and if you don't have confident answers, I'd rather fold.

chesspain

06-03-2005, 09:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How tight have you been, how tenacious are they postflop with overcards, how have they been adjusting for position with their opening & 3-betting. Your decision should incorporate all of these...

[/ QUOTE ]

You did see where I said:

[ QUOTE ]
Both players had TAG stats after approx. thirty hands

[/ QUOTE ].

S_Perry

06-03-2005, 09:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How tight have you been, how tenacious are they postflop with overcards, how have they been adjusting for position with their opening & 3-betting. Your decision should incorporate all of these...

[/ QUOTE ]

You did see where I said:

[ QUOTE ]
Both players had TAG stats after approx. thirty hands

[/ QUOTE ].

[/ QUOTE ]

I did. That's at least 1 hour in a B&M. My reads are solid in that time.

EDIT: This is what sucks about this forum. I gave several dimensions to think about for your preflop decision and you said nothing about any of them because you only played 3 orbits. You don't even know how tight you've been?

thirddan

06-03-2005, 09:47 PM

i don't see how you could have a solid read on any person, especially a tight player after witnessing only 30 dealt hands...in those hands a tight player may have played only 4-6 hands and probably didn't show most of them down...

chesspain

06-03-2005, 09:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How tight have you been, how tenacious are they postflop with overcards, how have they been adjusting for position with their opening & 3-betting. Your decision should incorporate all of these...

[/ QUOTE ]

You did see where I said:

[ QUOTE ]
Both players had TAG stats after approx. thirty hands

[/ QUOTE ].

[/ QUOTE ]

I did. That's at least 1 hour in a B&M. My reads are solid in that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...so assuming that an average TAG is 18/9 preflop, that means that you get "solid" post-flop reads for someone after they have played maybe six or seven hands, raised with three of them, and gone to showdown maybe once or twice?

Nick C

06-03-2005, 10:21 PM

Given that we're playing along here, I'm guessing you at least called.

I prefer calling to capping. I probably would fold. This is because my recent experiences with JJ versus a lot of preflop action from tight players have not been good.

If the raises came from earlier positions, I would fold without much hesitation.

chesspain

06-03-2005, 10:23 PM

Preflop: chesspain is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, chesspain caps, 2 folds, Button calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
chesspain bets, Button raises, chesspain 3-bets...

Standard once it's heads-up? And what's my plan from this point?

chesspain

06-03-2005, 10:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer calling to capping. I probably would fold. This is because my recent experiences with JJ versus a lot of preflop action from tight players have not been good.

If the raises came from earlier positions, I would fold without much hesitation.

[/ QUOTE ]

O.K....but once the action is folded to MP2 we have now been transported to a six-max table.

pokerstudAA

06-03-2005, 10:34 PM

Folds - without thinking twice. Your options suck...you are out of position and nearly every flop is going to have overs. That is if no one has a big pair. I dont know what others said but I am tight in the blinds.

I cetainly would not cap it wanting to see if the initial raiser did.

Entity

06-03-2005, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I prefer calling to capping. I probably would fold. This is because my recent experiences with JJ versus a lot of preflop action from tight players have not been good.

If the raises came from earlier positions, I would fold without much hesitation.

[/ QUOTE ]

O.K....but once the action is folded to MP2 we have now been transported to a six-max table.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's only if you can assume MP2 and Button are adjusting for the fact that hand values have descended (which they should, but not everyone does, especially in the retardedly nittish $3/6), and without reads, it's hard to know one way or another. It's one of the big reasons I'm more likely to cap if I have this OTB than in the SB as well.

Rob

spoohunter

06-03-2005, 10:38 PM

You guys seriously fold here? What a bunch of nits. Cap it away.

Nick C

06-03-2005, 10:43 PM

If Button just calls the 3-bet, I lead the turn. If he raises the turn, I fold (well, unless I caught a set or a third diamond).

If Button just calls the flop 3-bet and calls again on the turn, I probably would check-call the river. This is because I don't think I'm getting paid off by AK, I think QQ/KK is at least as likely as TT/99, Button might check behind with hands that beat me and also might bet with hands that don't, and I want to see a showdown at this point (without paying two more big bets to do it). I don't really know what plan is best on the river, though.

Anyway, this is assuming blanks are falling.

If Button caps the flop, I call. And then I probably check-fold the turn unimproved. If a diamond fell, I would check-call instead. And if a jack fell, I'd try to get as many bets in as possible.

One problem with my turn check-fold plan (after the flop is capped) is that Villain might play two big diamonds this way. However, that's probably not what he has, and once he bets the turn instead of checking behind, two big diamonds becomes somewhat less likely.

CallMeIshmael

06-03-2005, 10:45 PM

FWIW, I think I dislike calling preflop here, because MP2 calls 100% of the time, when we call. When we cap, a TAG is going to be forced to fold a decent % of his hands.

IMO, getting the dead money in is worth more than the knowledge that he did/didnt cap and the slight equity defecit on our cap.

Nick C

06-04-2005, 05:03 AM

Bump.

Am I the only one who wants to play this hand postflop?

Anyway, I'm curious what other people's plans are.

All right, now I'm going back to Party to finish losing my bonus before I can clear it.

chesspain

06-04-2005, 07:53 AM

Preflop: chesspain is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, chesspain caps, 2 folds, Button calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
chesspain bets, Button raises, chesspain 3-bets, Button calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
chesspain bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Based upon the significant drop off in the number of responses to this thread after the preflop action, I am guessing that the preflop decision was the only debateable part of the hand.

feelixthegreek

06-04-2005, 11:46 AM

Button must have had Ax in diamonds, probably AK-AT.

Was it your intention to try and get it heads up by capping PF?

DMBFan23

06-04-2005, 11:50 AM

I think a stop and go is worth mentioning postflop, and it's my usual line, but I like the way you played it and I play it that way sometimes too

chesspain

06-04-2005, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Button must have had Ax in diamonds, probably AK-AT.

Was it your intention to try and get it heads up by capping PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I assumed that the openraiser may well have been opening light, I figured there was a good chance he had a hand as weak as a mid-PP against which I was ahead...or a hand with up to six outs such as KQ/AQ with which he might drop either right there, or on the flop if he missed (especially if he was afraid of getting trapped between the Button and me).

LoaferGee12

06-04-2005, 02:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If Button just calls the 3-bet, I lead the turn. If he raises the turn, I fold (well, unless I caught a set or a third diamond).

If Button just calls the flop 3-bet and calls again on the turn, I probably would check-call the river. This is because I don't think I'm getting paid off by AK, I think QQ/KK is at least as likely as TT/99, Button might check behind with hands that beat me and also might bet with hands that don't, and I want to see a showdown at this point (without paying two more big bets to do it). I don't really know what plan is best on the river, though.

Anyway, this is assuming blanks are falling.

If Button caps the flop, I call. And then I probably check-fold the turn unimproved. If a diamond fell, I would check-call instead. And if a jack fell, I'd try to get as many bets in as possible.

One problem with my turn check-fold plan (after the flop is capped) is that Villain might play two big diamonds this way. However, that's probably not what he has, and once he bets the turn instead of checking behind, two big diamonds becomes somewhat less likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked every part of this post, especially the c/c on the river. I play this the same way.

LoaferGee12

06-04-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think a stop and go is worth mentioning postflop, and it's my usual line, but I like the way you played it and I play it that way sometimes too

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you folding to a raise on the turn?

BigBaitsim (milo)

06-04-2005, 04:42 PM

Cap it. Good chance you are ahead, even against TAGs and you gain some measure of control.

BigBaitsim (milo)

06-04-2005, 04:44 PM

BigBaitsim (milo)

06-04-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: chesspain is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, chesspain caps, 2 folds, Button calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
chesspain bets, Button raises, chesspain 3-bets, Button calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
chesspain bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Based upon the significant drop off in the number of responses to this thread after the preflop action, I am guessing that the preflop decision was the only debateable part of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well played. If he caps the flop, I consider calling him down, depending on the turn and river, of course.

S_Perry

06-04-2005, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How tight have you been, how tenacious are they postflop with overcards, how have they been adjusting for position with their opening & 3-betting. Your decision should incorporate all of these...

[/ QUOTE ]

You did see where I said:

[ QUOTE ]
Both players had TAG stats after approx. thirty hands

[/ QUOTE ].

[/ QUOTE ]

I did. That's at least 1 hour in a B&M. My reads are solid in that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...so assuming that an average TAG is 18/9 preflop, that means that you get "solid" post-flop reads for someone after they have played maybe six or seven hands, raised with three of them, and gone to showdown maybe once or twice?

[/ QUOTE ]

On their hand ranges, yes. Don't you think about the hands they folded when they don't get to showdown? Do you need to see their exact holecards to be able to get a read on their opening standards?

S_Perry

06-04-2005, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button must have had Ax in diamonds, probably AK-AT.

Was it your intention to try and get it heads up by capping PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I assumed that the openraiser may well have been opening light, I figured there was a good chance he had a hand as weak as a mid-PP against which I was ahead...or a hand with up to six outs such as KQ/AQ with which he might drop either right there, or on the flop if he missed (especially if he was afraid of getting trapped between the Button and me).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wasn't this information in the original hand post? Seems pretty important.

oreogod

06-04-2005, 07:37 PM

The only thing preflop to debate is what is Button holding? MP2 is probably open raising with AT, KJ, KQ...etc. Buttons 3-bet is what Im worried about. If he only does it with AK, AQ and AA-JJ u could be in a lot of trouble.

I dont mind a fold out of position against a TAG. What happens if a Q hits, AK might be able to push u out of the pot. Or u could be way behind.

Depends. If MP2 is raising light, I like a cap. Get Button heads up, although out of position, its more likely he has AK, AQ.

chesspain

06-04-2005, 09:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since I assumed that the openraiser may well have been opening light, I figured there was a good chance he had a hand as weak as a mid-PP against which I was ahead...or a hand with up to six outs such as KQ/AQ with which he might drop either right there, or on the flop if he missed (especially if he was afraid of getting trapped between the Button and me).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wasn't this information in the original hand post? Seems pretty important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I gave what limited reads I had--that opponents seemed TAGish--I wanted to leave my strategy thoughts out until individuals had a chance to formulate their own ideas.