SNG Quiz

[lastchance]

This quiz will be general, and it will also show huge flaws in your thinking if you answer incorrectly. Every good SNG player should answer every question here easily and correctly.

Hand 1:
UTG (t1000)
Button (t1000)
Hero (t3000)
BB (t3000)
Blinds are t300.
Standard 50/30/20 structure, Party tournament.

Folded to hero with AQo. BB is a very good 2+2er.

1) What's your play?
2) With what range do you move in?
3) What are you thinking when BB calls you?
4) You are now BB. With what range do you call here? (no reads on SB).
5) Assume you are button instead of SB. SB pushes, BB calls. How does this affect your equity? (AKA, is this series of events good or bad?)

General Questions:
6) There are more than 4 players in L5. How often are you limping?
7) Do you push often with J2o? Do you call often with J2o?

[DasLeben]

1) Easy push
2) Any two. Another 2+2er isn't going to call anything but top top hands here, since there are smaller stacks out.
3) "Uh oh. C'moooon luckbox."
4) Aces, MAYBE kings.
5) Good. I hope one of 'em busts.
6) Zero!
7) I push with J2o a ton. I call with it almost never.

(All assuming 50/30/20 payout)

[durron597]

What are the blinds and payouts? I can't answer those questions without that info.

[lastchance]

Payouts are standard. I noted Blinds already. Assume standard Party Structure.

[freemoney]

lol first of all by ssaying that every good player will answer the question correctly meaning the same as you is arrogant and the belief that there is only one answer is categorically wrong. for example there are different good 2+2'ers that range in how they play that spot. but my answers...

1. i raise to 800
2. AK, TT-AA, aq wouldnt be bad.
3. umm anyways
4. no reads i call with JJ-AA, AK
5. Great
6. Limping sucks
7. i mean this should be self evident it all depends

[byronkincaid]

OK I'll go for this, I haven't read any other answers. Let's hope I've not got too many huge flaws.......

1 Poosh
2 against a 2+2er any 2 and then show /images/graemlins/smile.gif
3 shiiiit
4 QQ+ AK
5 sehr g00t
6 not very often, I like limping with AA sometimes
7 Do you mean any 2? if so yes and no

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
lol first of all by ssaying that every good player will answer the question correctly meaning the same as you is arrogant and the belief that there is only one answer is categorically wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. These questions and answers are mostly based on ICM principles, which don't change just because you want them to.

Anyways, back on topic.

</hijack>

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Easy push
2) Any two. Another 2+2er isn't going to call anything but top top hands here, since there are smaller stacks out.
3) "Uh oh. C'moooon luckbox."
4) Aces, MAYBE kings.
5) Good. I hope one of 'em busts.
6) Zero!
7) I push with J2o a ton. I call with it almost never.

(All assuming 50/30/20 payout)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you, but I definitely add kings to my call in 4.

[tigerite]

1) Push.
2) Any two.
3) That unless he shows me a high pair, he's an idiot.
4) 99+.
5) It has to be good, because barring an unlikely split (which wouldn't affect my equity at all) I've just improved to at least 3rd, with a chance for 2nd.

6) To trap from EP with AA, or rarely with KK on an aggressive table, or very rarely with QQ on an extremely aggressive table. Otherwise, never.
7) When the situation calls for it, yes. Which is quite often. As for calling, only if a small stack pushes to me in the BB, and to call won't damage my stack to any significant amount, and I have pot odds to do so.

Pretty standard stuff.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with you, but I definitely add kings to my call in 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I just did the math on it.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm with you, but I definitely add kings to my call in 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I just did the math on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are awesome.

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[tigerite]

You should do the math for TT+ as well, because as you are playing against another 2+2er, you will need to eke out as much EV% as you can.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
You should do the math for TT+ as well, because as you are playing against another 2+2er, you will need to eke out as much EV% as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, OP said that you have no reads on SB, so you can probably assume that he's not 2+2 in this case. You'd be surprised at the math for TT-QQ. I won't give it away for the sake of the quiz though.

[lastchance]

I did say no reads, which certainly changes the problem.

[tigerite]

Ah ok, I missed that. In which case I change it to KK+ as well.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah ok, I missed that. In which case I change it to KK+ as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop cheating.

[valenzuela]

1)all-in
2)any A, any K, any Q, any pair..asumming the two plus twoer doesnt know its me
3)[censored].
4)The big 4.
5)I dont get the question.
6)Only when I misclick.
7)no, no...not in an 11.
EDIT:5)grrr...Im still on a bad streak anyway.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
This quiz will be general, and it will also show huge flaws in your thinking if you answer incorrectly. Every good SNG player should answer every question here easily and correctly.

Hand 1:
UTG (t1000)
Button (t1000)
Hero (t3000)
BB (t3000)
Blinds are t300.
Standard 50/30/20 structure, Party tournament.

Folded to hero with AQo. BB is a very good 2+2er.

1) What's your play?
2) With what range do you move in?
3) What are you thinking when BB calls you?
4) You are now BB. With what range do you call here? (no reads on SB).
5) Assume you are button instead of SB. SB pushes, BB calls. How does this affect your equity? (AKA, is this series of events good or bad?)

General Questions:
6) There are more than 4 players in L5. How often are you limping?
7) Do you push often with J2o? Do you call often with J2o?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Push
2. Any 2 cards, irrespective of whether my opponent knows that this is my range.
3. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
4. QQ+, 99+ if I knew he was pushing any 2
5. Awesome!!! I'm almost guaranteed a 10% bump in equity.

6. Extremely rarely
7. Somewhat often, occasionally.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

4 AK


[/ QUOTE ]

no way dude, easy fold. do the math.

[microbet]

Too lazy. Ilya sounded right. The J2o thing was a bit vague. Ilya said call somewhat often with it, which maybe an overstatement IMO. You have to hit the right pot odds from the BB.

Some people wanted to be tighter than QQ+ on the calling the SB one. I'll go out on a limb without doing the math. QQ is a call. The 1000 stacks just aren't short enough to make QQ a fold.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
The J2o thing was a bit vague. Ilya said call somewhat often with it, which maybe an overstatement IMO. You have to hit the right pot odds from the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. FMP to "occasionally."

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

Some people wanted to be tighter than QQ+ on the calling the SB one. I'll go out on a limb without doing the math. QQ is a call. The 1000 stacks just aren't short enough to make QQ a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the other stacks at 300 and you & the SB both at 3700, QQ is an easy call IF you judge SB's range to be any 2 (+1.4%). In fact, if you're CERTAIN that SB is pushing with any 2, JJ is a call (+0.4%). However, you just can't be sure enough in practice to make calling with JJ correct. Your opponent only needs to be folding a few hands (65-) to make the call no better than break-even.
If you think your opponent is tighter than he should be (Maniac setting in Eastbay), you should only call with KK+.
If you think your opponent is stupidly tight (Loose range in Eastbay or tighter), it becomes VERY clear that you should only call with AA.

[lastchance]

So, most people did answer this correctly. The answers should be obvious to every good SNGer, at least every good SNGer should have a very good idea as to the answers, and there's little doubt otherwise.

1. Push, of course. Raising to 800 as one poster suggested just encourages others to push against your raise, putting you in a position to lose a lot of equity.
2. The other guy's a 2+2er. He's not calling AK even if you're pushing any 2. Most 2+2er's range here against an unknown opponent doesn't even include QQ, for crying out loud. Against a good opponent, they call with JJ. You move in no matter what your cards are.
3. Of course, "luckbox" and "doh" are among your thoughts. If BB was calling 53s, you'd still say doh, and when BB's range is JJ-AA at most, you're not happy.
4. Somewhat general, but QQ-AA is my range, and, surprisingly for me, that's a bit loose here. Learn something new every day.
5. Yay, of course. Like ilya (I believe) said, your equity increases at least 10% from this series of events. There's very little you can do to increase your equity that much.
6. Rarely to none. Stealing blinds is paramount. You really don't want action.
7. Often, rarely. Admittedly, a bit vague, but I was trying to show "gap concept."

[freemoney]

i mean if you realize that the ICM is an aid and not the answer that might help

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
for example there are different good 2+2'ers that range in how they play that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

this claim is akin to saying that some good tennis players try to miss the service box on their serve.

[freemoney]

umm no

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
umm no

[/ QUOTE ]

look, man, I am sorry about the imperiously contemptuous tone of my last comment. but fact is, there really is only 1 correct way to play here given what you are specified as knowing about the BB (namely that he's a "very good 2+2er"). just do the math and you will see that this is clearly true.

[freemoney]

i mean no thats not true, situations such as how the smaller stacks play, how good the other big stack plays when ITM and the comparative level of you and the other players all change this answer, this is more mathematical than most situations but the cut and dry answers of people who can use the ICM but cant beat the 30 dollar tables is because of this, people dont understand all the circumstances that cant be added into a math equation.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
i mean no thats not true, situations such as how the smaller stacks play, how good the other big stack plays when ITM and the comparative level of you and the other players all change this answer, this is more mathematical than most situations but the cut and dry answers of people who can use the ICM but cant beat the 30 dollar tables is because of this, people dont understand all the circumstances that cant be added into a math equation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I beat the $30s for 15% and once again, I assure you that there is One Correct Answer to this question. The edge you pass up here by folding 32o is simply much too large to be overcome by any other considerations.

[freemoney]

lol big deal, and no, something can be -EV even if you are optimizing EV.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
lol big deal, and no, something can be -EV even if you are optimizing EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I give up. You seem to be more interested in preserving face than in improving your play. That is your prerogative, so good luck to you.

[freemoney]

Do you understand that concept?

[checkers777]

Good quiz. It would be very valuable to have a 'quiz of the day/week'. What do you think?

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you understand that concept?

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? Let's go over the math for the first question's answer, which is that you should push any two against a known (good) 2+2er.

BB's calling range: KK+

$EV of pushing AQo from the SB: +1.9% (+$5.68 of the prizepool).
$EV pushing 72o: +1.8% (+$5.38)

And just for kicks:

$EV pushing AA: +2.1% (+$6.23)

The difference between pushing AA and 72o against this player is 0.3% of the prize pool. That's basically insignificant at this point. The fact that the OP had you in the SB with AQo is moot. It was designed to confuse substandard players into believing that there is somehow a difference in what you should push here. Apparently it did confuse you, since you're bringing up ridiculous arguments about how there is "more than one answer." I can assure you, just like ilya, that there is one. The one and only correct answer is to "push any two."

This goes beyond arrogance, ego, or style. This is math. It's pure and concrete. You are wrong and we are right. Capisce?

[freemoney]

i mean i guarantee i do much better multitabling the 109s then you do at whatever level you do, and i dont call with just KK and AA here.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
i mean i guarantee i do much better multitabling the 109s then you do at whatever level you do

[/ QUOTE ]

Your first post in this thread:

[ QUOTE ]
first of all by ssaying that every good player will answer the question correctly meaning the same as you is arrogant

[/ QUOTE ]

Wanna keep playing this game?

[twoplustwosux]

I'm sure you're right dude. People in this room are totally posers. You might want to check it out here. (http://www.recpoker.com)

[freemoney]

its not just a simple math problem

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
its not just a simple math problem

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to wait for someone else to come around and have a go at you. I've shown you the math, which takes into account stacks, blinds, and calling ranges. But, you just keep repeating your original argument like you haven't even read what everyone else has been saying to you.

So, keep giving up your ~1.8% (in your case, your $18 or so). Give us a status report of how you're doing every once in a while eh?

[freemoney]

hands arent played in a vacuum.

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
hands arent played in a vacuum.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are cases where the math is so compelling that it dictates your action. ICM may have its limitations, but to assert that your gut feeling/judgement/intuition is more accurate in this case is to display innumeracy.

GG

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
i mean i guarantee i do much better multitabling the 109s then you do at whatever level you do, and i dont call with just KK and AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't mean you don't make mistakes, and doesn't mean that your ideas invalidate those of people who play smaller than you. Das may have 50 errors in his game that you don't, but this is one leak you have that he doesn't.

[prana]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i mean i guarantee i do much better multitabling the 109s then you do at whatever level you do, and i dont call with just KK and AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't mean you don't make mistakes, and doesn't mean that your ideas invalidate those of people who play smaller than you. Das may have 50 errors in his game that you don't, but this is one leak you have that he doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

[CaptSensible]

1) What's your play?

BET


2) With what range do you move in?

1500 TO ALL IN

3) What are you thinking when BB calls you?

AK, QQ, IF HE HAS ANYTHING BETTER IM THINKING HE'D PUT ME ALL IN.

4) You are now BB. With what range do you call here? (no reads on SB).

1/4 MY STACK

5) Assume you are button instead of SB. SB pushes, BB calls. How does this affect your equity? (AKA, is this series of events good or bad?)

GOOD THAT ONE WILL BE OUT

General Questions:
6) There are more than 4 players in L5. How often are you limping?

GENERALLY NEVER. GENERALLY

7) Do you push often with J2o? Do you call often with J2o?

A: GENERALLY NO. DEPENDS THOUGH ON PLAYERS, POSITION, STACK, ETC.

B: NEVER

[freemoney]

well said and a valid point, and my hand range is not much wider than what is stated to be right by ICM, but people rely on this kind of thing too much, i personally have never used it and never will, rather then being an aid it ends up being a crutch.

[chumdawg]

Couple questions about this quiz:

1) The quiz says that we know something about the BB, but it doesn't say what he knows about us. If he recognizes this as a push with any two, why does that not impact his calling range? Why would he clearly fold AK or even QQ? I would like to take a look at the math that says he is better off folding and playing on with 2700 chips, against stacks of 3300, 1000, and 1000...versus either playing 6000 chips against 1000 and 1000 or busting out.

So I suppose the questions that I would like to see the answers to are:

2) What range does BB put you on when you push?

3) How does that impact his calling range? And if it doesn't, why not?

[byronkincaid]

[ QUOTE ]
no way dude, easy fold. do the math

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhhh what's math? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[dfan]

[ QUOTE ]
Couple questions about this quiz:

1) The quiz says that we know something about the BB, but it doesn't say what he knows about us. If he recognizes this as a push with any two, why does that not impact his calling range? Why would he clearly fold AK or even QQ? I would like to take a look at the math that says he is better off folding and playing on with 2700 chips, against stacks of 3300, 1000, and 1000...versus either playing 6000 chips against 1000 and 1000 or busting out.

So I suppose the questions that I would like to see the answers to are:

2) What range does BB put you on when you push?

3) How does that impact his calling range? And if it doesn't, why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Couple questions about this quiz:

1) The quiz says that we know something about the BB, but it doesn't say what he knows about us. If he recognizes this as a push with any two, why does that not impact his calling range? Why would he clearly fold AK or even QQ? I would like to take a look at the math that says he is better off folding and playing on with 2700 chips, against stacks of 3300, 1000, and 1000...versus either playing 6000 chips against 1000 and 1000 or busting out.

So I suppose the questions that I would like to see the answers to are:

2) What range does BB put you on when you push?
I don't know what range BB puts you on because the question doesn't specify your table image.

3) How does that impact his calling range? And if it doesn't, why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

It definitely does affect his calling range. According to strict ICM if he thinks your push range is:
a) 66+, ATs+, AJo+, then he should only call with AA.

b) any pair, any ace, KTs+, KJo+,QJs+ then he should call with KK+.

c) add any Q, J7s+, J9o+, and high suited connectors like T8s+, and 98s he should call with QQ+.

d) if he sees you pushing with any 2 then he should call with 99+.

The question said "you have no read on the SB" so I guess that means you would have to put the SB on a push range that was typical for that SNG buy-in at that position in the tournament. I'm guessing that for say a 20's through 100's that might be something like c?

In any case none of this affects your answer to quiz question 2, since no matter which of these ranges he calls with your pushing range should still be any 2.

PS- I'm fairly new to this - I've played a couple hundred SNG's mostly 10's and 20's and found this quiz to be really helpful. So thanks, OP. Hope you guys make this a weekly tradition.

[Bataglin]

I'm with freemoney in this thread. I love players thinking inside the box.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
rather then being an aid it ends up being a crutch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unexploitable mathematical advantages are funny like that.

[freemoney]

you guys are all so arrogant because you all suck eachother off.

[Phoenix1010]

Perhaps if you explained why your answer is what it is? Maybe you could show us how some of the other factors you mentioned would affect the correct answer. Everyone here is using evidence to back up their answers. All you've said is "hands aren't played in a vacuum" and "I beat the 109's." You mentioned EV, you know that's a mathematical concept, right? If you want anyone to take you seriously, you're going to have to defend your stance. If there's some way to do that without math (hint: there is none), then please, show us the light.

-Phoenix

[Newt_Buggs]

I haven't read any responses but everything seems fairly straight forward

1. push of course
2. any two
3. uhh... that i'm screwed and that it sucks that he got delt a hand good enough to call
4. obviously depends on the player. Against a very good 2+2er I call with 99+ (yup, folding AKs)
5. I jump up and down and scream like a little girl I'm so happy.

6. Almost never- you can't say never because you can almost always find an exception to things like never and always in poker
7. yeah, there's plenty of spots to push J2o, but can never really call with it unless there's a shortstack involved (ie you have great pot odds).

[freemoney]

hint there is idiot i love how 90% of the forum cant beat the 10+1's but all listen to eachother but wont listen to someone who beats the 109s. there are alot of factors, i am insanely aggressive on the bubble, and i am playing 4 at a time, so are alot of other good players so it ends up we are playing the bubble with eachother alot if they know i will call with aq or 8s or whatever then they arent pushing with any 2 and thats a HUGE advantage. also say i was playing phil ivey heads up and he has JJ the first hand and goes all in and shows me the hand i should call with AK even though its -EV, because i think the best chance i have of winning even though its -EV, so just becaue something is -EV doesnt mean its wrong. so if you are playing strong 2+2'er where you wont have much of an edge it is ok to take a small -EV move here to build image and comparatively its maximizing EV. also other factors on how the small stacks play affect this situation. instead of all getting in a circle jerk, think for yourselves guys maybe you can actually move up to the 20s or 30s GOSH!

[Newt_Buggs]

the reason why this is a mathematically unexploitable push though is because you calling with AQ+, 88+ here (which is a very bad call) is irrelevant because it STILL makes 2,3o a profitable push.

[ QUOTE ]

1. i raise to 800


[/ QUOTE ]
this is from your first post and it is very wrong

[freemoney]

i mean not against the right players its not.

[Zoelef]

[ QUOTE ]
Folded to hero with AQo. BB is a very good 2+2er.

1) What's your play?
2) With what range do you move in?
3) What are you thinking when BB calls you?
4) You are now BB. With what range do you call here? (no reads on SB).
5) Assume you are button instead of SB. SB pushes, BB calls. How does this affect your equity? (AKA, is this series of events good or bad?)

General Questions:
6) There are more than 4 players in L5. How often are you limping?
7) Do you push often with J2o? Do you call often with J2o?

[/ QUOTE ]

1.) Push
2.) 99+, AJ+, KQ (BB has a random hand here)
3.) I try not to think and instead assess the hand as a pure observer, thinking about who needs what to be ahead (after flop and turn).
4.) QQ+, AK (given a SB push, I want a hand that dominates his if possible, I can live with losing QQ v. KK-AA)
5.) Given my push with AQo on the Button, I realize that with a reraiser and caller I expect to see at least one of QQ+ or AK and am probably very very screwed.
6.) Rarely.(T9s on the button after 2 limpers, e.g.)
7.) Rarely (probably as a shortstacked HU); Never.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
i mean not against the right players its not.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB is a very good 2+2er

[/ QUOTE ]
this is definitly the wrong type of player

[freemoney]

alright well there are definitely players who do well with good ROI's at the 109s who will call with AK, JJ+ but wont come over the top with a worse hand, regardles of if they read 2+2 or not.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
alright well there are definitely players who do well with good ROI's at the 109s who will call with AK, JJ+ but wont come over the top with a worse hand, regardles of if they read 2+2 or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can assure you that many of the winning $100 players will be coming over the top with a wide range of hands. Some will even push any two against this depending on how big of a donk they think you are.

Obviously I can't prove this point, at least until a $100 player reads this and stops laughing for long enough to write out a post.

[Moonsugar]

Check this out (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2539571&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

[freemoney]

i didnt say against every player or every good player, i know situations and the types of players i can make this, i dont think anyone is beating the 109s much more than me, you are more than welcomed to watch and i am confident that there are situations where raising to 800 and folding to a push is fine.

[Moonsugar]

I wasn't laughing, but I am amazed.

Actually, I don't even know why I was amazed because this guy has a history.

I draw your attention to this interesting question. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=248 6735&Forum=,,,All_Forums,,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Li mit=25&Main=2486735&Search=true&where=&Name=19302& daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post2486735)

[Moonsugar]

Whatever you say, dude. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=248 6735&Forum=,,,All_Forums,,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Li mit=25&Main=2486735&Search=true&where=&Name=19302& daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post2486735)

[freemoney]

lol i had a rough start, you can ask a player who frequently plays the 109s how i do, use poker prophecy, whatever you want. im in the itm 41% with 15.5% 1sts.
jljf3.

[Moonsugar]

I frequently play the 109s. I only played with you once, but you took 1st. Congrats.

[freemoney]

well all i am trying to say is there arent simple right/wrong answers here and its not just a math problem. some people might tilt more because they busted out on the bubble with a big stack this will affect your winrate more than other very marginal situations you guys obsess over.

[Moonsugar]

To paraphrase someone better than me: Poker is 100% math, its just not the math you think it is.

I will try to help you once more then I am done:

If you think you are the world's greatest SnG player and eveyone else is an idiot, how are you ever going to improve?

[freemoney]

this i the exact point i am trying to make, i dont think i am anywhere close to how good i can be or how good other people are, but this groupthink where all these people who cant beat 10+1's where ones answer becomes conventional wisdom whether or not its right defeats the purpose of the forum. i suggest reading freakonomics, might open some of your minds

[valenzuela]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif, ok ignoring is fun. Instead of saying" i beat the 109s , u loser dont even beat the 11s bwahahahahahaahahhaha" u could explain why are u right. But of course ure wrong so u prefer to do personal attacks, very lame. I wont have to read ure whining anymore so thats cool.

[CaptSensible]

[ QUOTE ]
1) What's your play?

BET


2) With what range do you move in?

1500 TO ALL IN

3) What are you thinking when BB calls you?

AK, QQ, IF HE HAS ANYTHING BETTER IM THINKING HE'D PUT ME ALL IN.

4) You are now BB. With what range do you call here? (no reads on SB).

1/4 MY STACK

5) Assume you are button instead of SB. SB pushes, BB calls. How does this affect your equity? (AKA, is this series of events good or bad?)

GOOD THAT ONE WILL BE OUT

General Questions:
6) There are more than 4 players in L5. How often are you limping?

GENERALLY NEVER. GENERALLY

7) Do you push often with J2o? Do you call often with J2o?

A: GENERALLY NO. DEPENDS THOUGH ON PLAYERS, POSITION, STACK, ETC.

B: NEVER

[/ QUOTE ]

Any critique of my choices here would be greatly appreciated

[freemoney]

hint there is idiot i love how 90% of the forum cant beat the 10+1's but all listen to eachother but wont listen to someone who beats the 109s. there are alot of factors, i am insanely aggressive on the bubble, and i am playing 4 at a time, so are alot of other good players so it ends up we are playing the bubble with eachother alot if they know i will call with aq or 8s or whatever then they arent pushing with any 2 and thats a HUGE advantage. also say i was playing phil ivey heads up and he has JJ the first hand and goes all in and shows me the hand i should call with AK even though its -EV, because i think the best chance i have of winning even though its -EV, so just becaue something is -EV doesnt mean its wrong. so if you are playing strong 2+2'er where you wont have much of an edge it is ok to take a small -EV move here to build image and comparatively its maximizing EV. also other factors on how the small stacks play affect this situation. instead of all getting in a circle jerk, think for yourselves guys maybe you can actually move up to the 20s or 30s GOSH!

thats just some idea of why there is more than one answer.

[chumdawg]

I keep reading that the math is irrefutable. Could someone please show the math, rather than just the answers?

I have learned that:

If the BB's calling standard here is KK+, it is +1.8% to push with any two.

How does that break down exactly? And what does "+1.8%" mean exactly? Does that mean you have 1.8 additional percentage points of equity in the prize pool if you push, versus if you fold 72o?

I have another couple questions:

1) How could we get this far into the tournament and not have any read on SB?

2) What I'm most interested in is what defense, if any, BB has to our play. Let's assume that we are BB and we don't have KK+, so we fold. The next hand we are in the small blind, with 2700 behind. More often than not UTG will fold here, correct? If so, the button is again correct to push any two, isn't he? And again we will have to fold most every hand, correct?

The result of that is going to be that we have 2550 behind, and either the BB has 2000 and the button has 2300...or the BB has busted out and the button has 4300...or the BB has 700 and the button has 3750.

If the BB folded (in the latter scenario above), on the next hand we are again going to face a push from the guy to our right, and again we are going to have to fold less than KK+, correct?

If the BB calls and holds up, will the player to our right be correct to push any two the next hand?

If the BB busted out, now we are on the button. Dead small, right? The guy is going to push on us again, and again we will have to fold all but KK+, correct?

What I'm getting at is, does the math say that we have to keep folding all but two hands to the guy who is pushing any two? At what point, if any, do we have a different defense besides hoping for KK or AA? At what point does it stop being correct for him to push any two?

3) It was said that raising AQo to 800 is not good because it encourages the BB to push against us. What range will this good 2+2er play back at us with? What is our expectation against those hands?

4) Let's say we are the BB in this scenario, and the SB simply completes the big blind. What do WE do with AQo? With what range do WE go all in?

[jgunnip]

haven't read any replies so here goes

1- riase 750-1000
2- 66+, AT+
3- uh oh
4- KK, AA
5- awesome i just made the money! man i love party poker!!
6- never
7- according to poker tracker...I have a VPIP of 2.74 2/73) with J2o. Each time was a push. I've never called a push with J2o although there are unique situations where i would.

[Moonsugar]

Yes, +1.8% means you gain 1.8% of equity in the prize pool by pushing no matter what your cards are.

1) I don't know.

2) there is no defense. Yes. Yes. ... All these subquestions giving me a headache. Remember you can push hands too.

3) Depends on our perceived range and folding equity.

4) Push unless you think he would only play this way with a very tight range of hands.

http://pokerstove.com/

http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.html

http://sitngo-analyzer.com/

[chumdawg]

[ QUOTE ]
2) there is no defense. Yes. Yes. ... All these subquestions giving me a headache. Remember you can push hands too.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't push if he keeps pushing first.

Thank you very much for the links. I'll go do some reading...

[Moonsugar]

At least 1/4 hands you can.

He may fold some hands where he is not SB and first in.

[Isaac Newton]

[ QUOTE ]
This quiz will be general, and it will also show huge flaws in your thinking if you answer incorrectly. Every good SNG player should answer every question here easily and correctly.

Hand 1:
UTG (t1000)
Button (t1000)
Hero (t3000)
BB (t3000)
Blinds are t300.
Standard 50/30/20 structure, Party tournament.

Folded to hero with AQo. BB is a very good 2+2er.

1) What's your play?
2) With what range do you move in?
3) What are you thinking when BB calls you?
4) You are now BB. With what range do you call here? (no reads on SB).
5) Assume you are button instead of SB. SB pushes, BB calls. How does this affect your equity? (AKA, is this series of events good or bad?)

General Questions:
6) There are more than 4 players in L5. How often are you limping?
7) Do you push often with J2o? Do you call often with J2o?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting quiz. I have a different point of view than most. Here's my take.
1)Move in
2)Any pair, A10+, suited Face Cards
3)Let's go, baby
4)I would view this as an attempt to steal. He could have anything. I can't believe he would put a good chance at cashing on the line with 75os for a 300 chip score, so I would say he's got any ace, any pair or any face cards. I'm calling with 99+, AK and AQs. Most of the time he'll be dominated and when he's not, I would have to be really unlucky to be a huge dog. We started with 10 and now I'm most likely favored to take an insurmountable led on the other two players and should win the tournament.
5)It's great
6)Small pairs and suited connectors. You can get in cheap and break the top pair pushers. Just let it go if you don't flop the nuts.
7)Not often online. Only against a small stack in the BB.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
this i the exact point i am trying to make, i dont think i am anywhere close to how good i can be or how good other people are, but this groupthink where all these people who cant beat 10+1's where ones answer becomes conventional wisdom whether or not its right defeats the purpose of the forum. i suggest reading freakonomics, might open some of your minds

[/ QUOTE ]

Post some HHs. I'm dead serious.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) What's your play?

BET


2) With what range do you move in?

1500 TO ALL IN

3) What are you thinking when BB calls you?

AK, QQ, IF HE HAS ANYTHING BETTER IM THINKING HE'D PUT ME ALL IN.

4) You are now BB. With what range do you call here? (no reads on SB).

1/4 MY STACK

5) Assume you are button instead of SB. SB pushes, BB calls. How does this affect your equity? (AKA, is this series of events good or bad?)

GOOD THAT ONE WILL BE OUT

General Questions:
6) There are more than 4 players in L5. How often are you limping?

GENERALLY NEVER. GENERALLY

7) Do you push often with J2o? Do you call often with J2o?

A: GENERALLY NO. DEPENDS THOUGH ON PLAYERS, POSITION, STACK, ETC.

B: NEVER

[/ QUOTE ]

Any critique of my choices here would be greatly appreciated

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, OP was more referring to a range of cards when he used the term "ranges." You might consider going through your quiz to change a couple of your answers, and then have someone evaluate.

[Rotating Rabbit]

I'm not an SNG player. Can someone briefly explain why a reasonable calling range in 4) is AA/possibly KK only ??!
Just seems surprising thats all !

[CaptSensible]

I thought the cards were AQos

[beeyjay]

[ QUOTE ]
i was asking more from a i think i should be at about 10% for ROI and through 250 im down like 2k

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not an SNG player. Can someone briefly explain why a reasonable calling range in 4) is AA/possibly KK only ??!
Just seems surprising thats all !

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2+2 community feels that you should never ever ever call, which is why they also feel it is correct to push any 2.

[lastchance]

Do you disagree? Is it worth calling here to discourage SB? But you have to calling with a lot of hands you shouldn't...

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not an SNG player. Can someone briefly explain why a reasonable calling range in 4) is AA/possibly KK only ??!
Just seems surprising thats all !

[/ QUOTE ]

From SNG 101 (j/k):

1) On the bubble, you want to avoid busting out, because after the next player busts out, you get paid (something).

2) Therefore, the logical strategy is to play very tight and only play hands that you think have a large chance of winning (really, really, good hands). Therefore, whenever you enter a pot, anyone with out a really good hand would be foolish to call, because they know you'd only enter with a great hand.

3) However, if you wait for these great hands, the blinds will eventually chew away your stack and you'll be blinded out. So instead, you basically bluff a great hand.

4) You would think that this would lead to people calling a lot more, knowing this. However, they have to account for the fact that occaisionally, you WILL have one of these big hands and bust them.

5) So, you have to wiegh the options of a) calling without a great hand and taking a chance of getting busted yourself with b) folding and then pushing yourself when you get the chance. The math (which I'll leave as an exercise for the reader) says that probability-wise, once the blinds get to a certain level, "B" is the best option.

Edit: before any busts me on this, this is deliberately oversimplified in order to explain the basic gap concept coupled with rising blinds.

[freemoney]

i mean check my pokerprophecy numbers, datamine me, watch me when im playing, play me at the tables you tell me how i do. i was running bad when i began, i know what i said, its funny how you guys think only calling with AA and MAYBE KK but pushing with any 2 is a good strategy, its working well for most you guys, keep tryin to eek out a profit at 10+1.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
but pushing with any 2 is a good strategy, its working well for most you guys, keep tryin to eek out a profit at 10+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stomp the lower buyins with this strategy. I mean, absolutely crush them. And it's not even close.

I saw that you posted some HHs, which is good on ya. When I'm at my home computer, I'll take a look.

[chumdawg]

I'm still trying to sort all this out. Could someone please help my understand why BB would fold AK if he knew SB was pushing any two?

If he folds, ICM shows him with 31.48% equity in the prize pool.

If opponent is pushing with any two, AK is a pretty good favorite against that range, right?

The trouble I am having with ICM is that in trying to calculate the BB's resultant prize pool equity if he calls and wins, I'm getting a result that seems counterintuitive. It shows a 6000-chip stack at 44.6% equity against two 1000-chip stacks.

Unless I'm interpreting something wrong here, it seems to me that this puts the opponents, collectively, as a favorite against the big stack. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It means that the BB will finish second/third more often than first. Can this be correct?

Here's a question for you: if the SB pushed with AQo and then tabled his cards, what would the BB do with AK? My intuition says that he should call (and I would expect that yours does, too). How are you doing the math to come up with the answer to a question like this? Thanks.

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
lol first of all by ssaying that every good player will answer the question correctly meaning the same as you is arrogant and the belief that there is only one answer is categorically wrong. for example there are different good 2+2'ers that range in how they play that spot. but my answers...

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
i mean check my pokerprophecy numbers, datamine me, watch me when im playing, play me at the tables you tell me how i do. i was running bad when i began, i know what i said, its funny how you guys think only calling with AA and MAYBE KK but pushing with any 2 is a good strategy, its working well for most you guys, keep tryin to eek out a profit at 10+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it possible that somebody else is being a little bit arrogant too?

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still trying to sort all this out. Could someone please help my understand why BB would fold AK if he knew SB was pushing any two?

If he folds, ICM shows him with 31.48% equity in the prize pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.


[ QUOTE ]
If opponent is pushing with any two, AK is a pretty good favorite against that range, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not as much as you might think. Against any two, AKo is 65.3% to win. The 65% of the time you call and win, your ICM value is now 44.6%. The 45% of the time you call and lose, it's 0%. So, by calling, your EV is:

(.65 * 44.6) + (.45 * 0) = 29.2%, which is less than what you get by folding.

[ QUOTE ]
The trouble I am having with ICM is that in trying to calculate the BB's resultant prize pool equity if he calls and wins, I'm getting a result that seems counterintuitive. It shows a 6000-chip stack at 44.6% equity against two 1000-chip stacks.

Unless I'm interpreting something wrong here, it seems to me that this puts the opponents, collectively, as a favorite against the big stack. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It means that the BB will finish second/third more often than first. Can this be correct?



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is. This is why deals that allocate the prize pool by stack size are very biased towards the big stacks. It also explains why your last few chips are worth more than your 2nd thousand chips.

[ QUOTE ]

Here's a question for you: if the SB pushed with AQo and then tabled his cards, what would the BB do with AK? My intuition says that he should call (and I would expect that yours does, too). How are you doing the math to come up with the answer to a question like this? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The math on this is pretty easy. AK is a 74.4% favorite over AQ. So, you're still at 46.6% if you win, but there's now a 74.4% chance of getting to that 46.6%.

(.744 * 44.6) = 32.2%, which is more than what you have left if you fold by 1.7%, which is generally accepted to be more than enough to call.

[Rotating Rabbit]

Right. Basically its like the gap concept magnified up a few notches on account of if you lose the hand you get 0? Thanks for the explanation. Interesting reading your AKo calculation in a post below also.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Right. Basically its like the gap concept magnified up a few notches on account of if you lose the hand you get 0? Thanks for the explanation. Interesting reading your AKo calculation in a post below also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to help. Lots of poker is counter-intuitive, but SnGs are more counter-intuitive than most types, which is one of the things that makes it so profitable.

[ilya]

The maximum equity you can have in a standard Party tournament is 50% of the prize pool.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
The maximum equity you can have in a standard Party tournament is 50% of the prize pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point -- I forgot to mention that. You'd think that winning is 100%, but first place is only half the money.

[freemoney]

no its the truth, isnt it funny how a successful 109er and a successful 215er Nick are both saying that ome of the answers arrived to on this forum should be taken with a grain of salt yet every player with an ROI of 3% at 10+1 so steadfastly denies anything other than the ICM

[pergesu]

That's cause the only proof the 3% $11ers see is ICM. Nick comes along and says, "That's horrible," "what an awful play," "you guys are all wrong," yet I've never seen him say "and this is why..." You say, "Lots of successful players would do this, which is contradictory to ICM," but don't explain how it's better than the conclusion reached by ICM.

Why do us peons stand behind the answers we reach with ICM? Cause curtains, eastbay et al come to those answers, and show us how they do it. I act on the best information I can find. Until someone tells me WHY an alternate play is better, I can't give it any substantial value.

[Moonsugar]

According to my work if SB will push with any two then I in BB should call with 99 or any higher pair. But that is it. No other card combinations. What are your arguments for calling with a broader range (if that is in fact what you are arguing)?

If you call SB with broader range to discourage SB from pushing with any 2, it doesn't matter. There is no defence because of the dead money in the pot and the way tournies are paid.

Or do you believe ICM to be flawed in this case? Or maybe every case?

One thing which should be worked on and I think we overlook because of the simplicity of all-in prices: pushing with any 2 is a profitable strategy but is it the BEST strategy? That strategy would include smaller raises, which I notice that you do in the endgame. Maybe this is what you hint at and one I have been working on.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
According to my work if SB will push with any two then I in BB should call with 99 or any higher pair. But that is it. No other card combinations. What are your arguments for calling with a broader range (if that is in fact what you are arguing)?

If you call SB with broader range to discourage SB from pushing with any 2, it doesn't matter. There is no defence because of the dead money in the pot and the way tournies are paid.

Or do you believe ICM to be flawed in this case? Or maybe every case?

One thing which should be worked on and I think we overlook because of the simplicity of all-in prices: pushing with any 2 is a profitable strategy but is it the BEST strategy? That strategy would include smaller raises, which I notice that you do in the endgame. Maybe this is what you hint at and one I have been working on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't arguing anything. I just don't think it is proper strategy to push any 2 into the other equal stack. I would definitely be pushing AQ as well as a number of other playable hands. My calling range would definitely wider than KK+. I don't have any ICM numbers or anything because I don't use that to back it up. I think it is more profitable to wait 1 hand and push with a short stacked BB with a much smaller risk of busting.

[beeyjay]

I'm really confused as to what you back this up with. You say you think its more profitable to wait a hand. I think people are trying to prove to you mathematically that this thought is wrong. Why would you want to wait a hand? so you can push into 2 people instead of 1? or so you can push into the small stack who is probably opening up his calling standards because he has to make a stand at some point?

I think this post may come off with a negative tone but thats really not what I'm going for. I just want an explanation for disagreeing with everybody else and the math.

[freemoney]

i mean i have posted why and because no player is gonna keep their range at KK+ if you move in on in them in every hand. ICM is not nearly as practical as you want to believe.

[Newt_Buggs]

I worked out the math this morning but I didn't save it. When I worked it out this morning I think that the BB calling range had to drop to something like 77+,A10+ for this to be a bad push w 2,3o. No good 2+2er is calling this with 77

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
lol first of all by ssaying that every good player will answer the question correctly meaning the same as you is arrogant and the belief that there is only one answer is categorically wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this depends on if you are going to play this as purely a preflop play or not. If your only choices are push or fold, then this is just a simple math problem. So, unless you think that math is an art, and not a science, then your words are too harsh.

Scuba

[chumdawg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still trying to sort all this out. Could someone please help my understand why BB would fold AK if he knew SB was pushing any two?

If he folds, ICM shows him with 31.48% equity in the prize pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.


[ QUOTE ]
If opponent is pushing with any two, AK is a pretty good favorite against that range, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not as much as you might think. Against any two, AKo is 65.3% to win. The 65% of the time you call and win, your ICM value is now 44.6%. The 45% of the time you call and lose, it's 0%. So, by calling, your EV is:

(.65 * 44.6) + (.45 * 0) = 29.2%, which is less than what you get by folding.

[ QUOTE ]
The trouble I am having with ICM is that in trying to calculate the BB's resultant prize pool equity if he calls and wins, I'm getting a result that seems counterintuitive. It shows a 6000-chip stack at 44.6% equity against two 1000-chip stacks.

Unless I'm interpreting something wrong here, it seems to me that this puts the opponents, collectively, as a favorite against the big stack. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It means that the BB will finish second/third more often than first. Can this be correct?



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is. This is why deals that allocate the prize pool by stack size are very biased towards the big stacks. It also explains why your last few chips are worth more than your 2nd thousand chips.

[ QUOTE ]

Here's a question for you: if the SB pushed with AQo and then tabled his cards, what would the BB do with AK? My intuition says that he should call (and I would expect that yours does, too). How are you doing the math to come up with the answer to a question like this? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The math on this is pretty easy. AK is a 74.4% favorite over AQ. So, you're still at 46.6% if you win, but there's now a 74.4% chance of getting to that 46.6%.

(.744 * 44.6) = 32.2%, which is more than what you have left if you fold by 1.7%, which is generally accepted to be more than enough to call.

[/ QUOTE ]I bet that when you play you really give it 110%. /images/graemlins/wink.gif (See the 65/45 explanation above.)

But seriously, thank you for the explanation. The thing that I had completely failed to give consideration to was that the maximum pool equity was 50%, as was highlighted by another poster later in the thread. I was thinking of 44.6% as "not even favored," when in fact it is the very strong situation that I believed it was...only there's nothing you can do about that half of the prize pool that they give to the other guys.

I'm a cash game player making the transition to SNG play, which I'm sure accounts for my slowness to come around to these concepts. But now, though, it's as if a light has come on...

[lastchance]

No, they're going to drop down to 99+.

[Matt Walker]

Here I just ran some math that some or all of you may find intersting.

Using eastbays program I set the SBs range to any two (I would assume if you know BB is a 2+2er, he also knows you are one and would adjust his range accordingly) The BB should call with 99+ if he knows you are pushing any two. Anything else loses money. Calling with AKs actually loses quite a bit of money, about 2 percent of prize pool. Calling with 88 costs about a percent. 99 gains less than a percent.

So it is safe to assume that a good players range won't be any larger than 99+ because for no pushing range is calling with 88 here a good play. Using 99+ as the calling range, it is still good for SB to push 32o as it gains him 1.3 percent of the prize pool. Thus even if the BB knows SB will push any two he's powerless to do anything about it.

I think this is clearly a push any two situtaion if you are never going to play these people again. Additionally if you get the blinds here you are the chip lead on the bubble with a couple relative short stacks, and we all know how powerful that can be.

This being said all these ICM calculations don't take metagame factors into consideration. If I know I'm going to be playing against these people in the future I'm going to have a very hard time folding AKs in the BB. By making a few spite calls and convincing the SB that I my call range is in fact wider than should be, his push range becomes smaller indefinatly which is good for my long term ROI. You're also very likely to get a spite call at least from me. There is an added bonus to taking some donk like strasser out that ICM just can't account for.

I think the reason there has been so much disagreement on this is because at the 10+1 level there are no metagame considerations. You won't see those people again. At the level Nick and Freemoney are playing it is important to take some -EV situations now so as to convince the SB in the situation that it is not profitable to push any two when you are in the BB.

[the shadow]

[ QUOTE ]
There is an added bonus to taking some donk like strasser out that ICM just can't account for.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's more likely that strassa's gonna take out the donk. It's interesting to me that strassa thinks (or at least thought so last year) that AKo is an auto call. Check it out here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1308441&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1).

The Shadow

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is an added bonus to taking some donk like strasser out that ICM just can't account for.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's more likely that strassa's gonna take out the donk. It's interesting to me that strassa thinks (or at least thought so last year) that AKo is an auto call. Check it out here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1308441&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1).

The Shadow

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Throw the entire ICM crap out the window for now

[/ QUOTE ] (Strassa)

why i hate donk posts but love strassa.

[Moonsugar]

That hand is a very different hand than the one discussed in this thread.

[Matt Walker]

OK so I spend an hour or so posting several paragraphs of analysis I did and found helpful and you quote out of context the one line in there that was a joke. Thanks ass.

FWIW the situation linked too is completely differnet than the one I posted on. In the other situation there are even stacks whereas in this one there are two small stacks and you are going at it with the big stack. In the one you linked to you are likely to have them dominated being as a weaker ace is a very likely holding. Here you are as likely to see 75o as AQo if you believe the oponent will push any two. If you think a large percentage of this guys push range is poplulated by Ax that would be significatly better for AK than populated with two cards you don't dominate. No one disputes that. Also different is the fact that in the other situation if you win you are the big stack on the bubble which has its own advantages. In this situation your calling and winning or losing end the bubble.

BTW the line you quoted was meant to be sarcastic to drive home that there are other considerations besides ICM namely I would love to be able to say I took someone like him out. The same is true of Gigabet and a number of other players I consider good. I wish I could remove it now, but alas I can't.

[Isaac Newton]

[ QUOTE ]
OK so I spend an hour or so posting several paragraphs of analysis I did and found helpful and you quote out of context the one line in there that was a joke. Thanks ass.

FWIW the situation linked too is completely differnet than the one I posted on. In the other situation there are even stacks whereas in this one there are two small stacks and you are going at it with the big stack. In the one you linked to you are likely to have them dominated being as a weaker ace is a very likely holding. Here you are as likely to see 75o as AQo if you believe the oponent will push any two. If you think a large percentage of this guys push range is poplulated by Ax that would be significatly better for AK than populated with two cards you don't dominate. No one disputes that. Also different is the fact that in the other situation if you win you are the big stack on the bubble which has its own advantages. In this situation your calling and winning or losing end the bubble.

BTW the line you quoted was meant to be sarcastic to drive home that there are other considerations besides ICM namely I would love to be able to say I took someone like him out. The same is true of Gigabet and a number of other players I consider good. I wish I could remove it now, but alas I can't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is the problem with the math in this example. You can figure the BB's range by giving the SB a range of any two cards. But that's not realistic. They might push with junk some of the time. But almost every player will push with Ax every time. It's the most likely holding for the SB. That makes AK and even AQ good calls.

[stupidsucker]

You dont have to push this hand, but it is the most logical thing to do.

I know BB is a 2+2er, but does he know that I am?

[Mr_J]

Ok, I've been out of the game for a bit and am rusty, so I'll give it a go.

1) push. You could raise here, but I want him to know he has NO FE.

2) Any 2.

3) Brainfart, or he has a powerhouse and I'm a big dog.

4) With very little. AA-QQ.

5) Big good. 2 big stacks going head to head on the bubble to let shortstack slide itm is funny.

6) Never.

7) How many players? In shorthanded games, yes I'll lay down the law with J2 when needed, but I'll only call if it'd be stupid to fold (eg you have 2k chips and it's costing 100 to call a push from desperado shortstack in SB on bubble).

[the shadow]

[ QUOTE ]
OK so I spend an hour or so posting several paragraphs of analysis I did and found helpful and you quote out of context the one line in there that was a joke. Thanks ass.


[/ QUOTE ]

Chill. Don't be so fast to take offense where none was intended.

FWIW, your analysis struck me as thoughtful (which is more than most posts in most threads). Strassa's comments in an earlier thread still give me some pause about the right play.

The Shadow

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the reason there has been so much disagreement on this is because at the 10+1 level there are no metagame considerations. You won't see those people again. At the level Nick and Freemoney are playing it is important to take some -EV situations now so as to convince the SB in the situation that it is not profitable to push any two when you are in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that pushing any two is an indefensible play. We've seen that even when you push any two, then calling with AK is a mistake. So does calling with AK convince SB that pushing isn't profitable? Or does calling let SB know that BB calls with too wide a range of hands, thus makes is making mistakes?

[freemoney]

in an isolated hand if SB pushes with any 2 its bad for AK to call but how can it be good for SB if AK calls, wouldnt the two big stacks gain equity and both big stacks lose?

[microbet]

You mean the small stacks gain equity, right?

I may say something dumb because I'm trying to squeeze this in while working, but in the OP's hand the small stacks gain equity no matter what happens in this hand, and if there is a call they gain a hell of a lot of equity, no matter what cards either player holds or who wins (unless they split the pot)

[freemoney]

but what im saying is even if AK is losing some equity arent they losing more equity from giving up 300 chips, also isnt the SB losing much more equity if BB calls with AK?

[lastchance]

The SB loses more equity than the BB from a spite call of AK, but guess what? Even if BB calls with AKo, SB still should move all-in 100% of the time. So, you need to be spite-calling a lot of hands that you would probably rather not spite call.

And folding the 300 chips is counted in our calcuations.

[freemoney]

but what if the SB player keeps moving in the BB player keeps losing 450 in a round of blinds that could easily last 2 or more rounds, now SB opens up a 2-1 chip advantage on BB, wouldnt that be more -EV then just calling with AK?

[microbet]

Well, AK is a bad call because it loses more equity by calling.

The push is +$EV depending on the calling range you put BB on. If you put BB on a tight range, even including AK, BB will call so infrequently that it works out. SB does not want a call for sure, except maybe from a hand it dominates. If BB showed AK and said "I will call", you wouldn't push, I would think without AA or KK.

[lastchance]

That's why BB needs to slide all of his chips in as well by moving all-in against the small stacks.

And yes, you'd much rather be SB than BB.

It might be a reason to call QQ here. ICM doesn't include these factors of SB having the ability to get monster folds here.

But, Button and UTG are not being insanely tight. They need chips. They're going to call, they're going to push. This bubble's about to bust soon. Pssing up here is good.

[freemoney]

but SB will act first every hand except 1/4 and if he has 72o and situations where there will be very little FE, you have to call with a wider range in hand 1 to avoid these situations.

[chumdawg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the reason there has been so much disagreement on this is because at the 10+1 level there are no metagame considerations. You won't see those people again. At the level Nick and Freemoney are playing it is important to take some -EV situations now so as to convince the SB in the situation that it is not profitable to push any two when you are in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that pushing any two is an indefensible play. We've seen that even when you push any two, then calling with AK is a mistake. So does calling with AK convince SB that pushing isn't profitable? Or does calling let SB know that BB calls with too wide a range of hands, thus makes is making mistakes?

[/ QUOTE ]I think the issue here is that the argument seems to assume that if BB will make a mistake by calling with AK, then SB receives the benefit of that mistake. I don't think this is true.

Let's say SB KNOWS that BB has AK. SB has AQ. Does he push still, taking comfort in the fact that BB would be making a mathematical mistake in calling? I don't think so.

So in that respect, there indeed IS a defense to the SB's pushing with any two. The BB basically says "I'll sacrifice a couple bucks here, to keep you from stealing my blinds with any two cards."

In other words, you don't give the SB the comfort zone of knowing he gets to steal the blinds unless the opponent has a very premium hand.

[Newt_Buggs]

umm, I think that I already answered these things here:
[ QUOTE ]
I worked out the math this morning but I didn't save it. When I worked it out this morning I think that the BB calling range had to drop to something like 77+,A10+ for this to be a bad push w 2,3o. No good 2+2er is calling this with 77


[/ QUOTE ]
it doesn't matter if hes going to spite call with AK! Its still a very +EV push knowing that he has a looser range. He can be calling willing to call with 88, or AJ and its still a profitable push w 2,3o. The reason why this is a fairly straightforward, mathematical situation is beacuse the margin is so wide.

[chumdawg]

If his calling range is any pair, any ace, any king, and any suited connectors or one-gappers...what would be a profitable range to push with?

[freemoney]

you are saying he will call with 34s? thats just not practical

[lastchance]

It'd be a pretty slim range, true, but that calling range is certainly worse than just giving SB your blind.

[chumdawg]

Okay, make it 78s+. I'm not necessarily that interested in how practical it would be, in any case. I'm interested in seeing how a wider callng range affects the profitability of SB himself pushing with 34s...or 32o...or 72o...any two.

[microbet]

It makes a huge differenct. If you KNOW BB calls with any two, it reverses their roles and now SB can only push with monsters. As BB widens his calling range, SB tightens his pushing range.

In the real world though, BB facing a push, and not knowing what cards SB has, needs a monster to make a correct call. Just because SB will push with 23o doesn't mean those are the cards he was dealt.

[Turk]

1)push
2)any 2
3)here we go...
4)QQ-AA
5)thrilled & hoping they both have a hand
6)never
7)I will push J2o but wont call with it normally

[barry111]

This is the first time I have tried to answer without looking at the other responses first. I am curious to see where I leak.

1) Push
2) any A9o and up or PP 55 and up
3) Happy he called, the BB thinks Im on a steal.
4) AJs and up any PP 99 and up
5) Good, once Im in the money I can be even more aggressive.
6) only with a monster
7) No, No