I Hate Continuation Bets

[Unarmed]

Well, that's not entirely true. A continuation bet can be a wonderful play in many situations. I'll give an example of one and perhaps that will help to display why c-betting may not be such a hot idea at Party SNGs, especially at the lower limits.

DISCLAIMER: Like many of you, I'm still learning to play post flop, so if this sounds like I know exactly what I'm talking about, I assure you I've been misquoted. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

A Great Place for a C-Bet

10 Handed, Blinds 15/30
You are UTG with A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Villain is UTG+1
Stacks equal at 1000 around the table

Villain is a solid ABC player, but a touch on the weak side, and a little too predictable.
You open raise you AK to 90 and get called by UTG only.

Flop (225) Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

This is a perfect spot to bet around 120 because:
UTG does not have AQ/AJ/AT/KQ/ etc. He's ABC and knows better than to call off a good chunk of his stack with these trouble hands. Also, he knows that stacks really aren't deep enough to call with suited connectors, expecially since he's not closing the action, meaning he may not have position PF, or worse, he may face a reraise PF from a player to act after him. He would call your raise with AK/QQ 50% of the time, while raising the other 50%, and with all other hands he will flat call and try to set up on the flop.

In this exact scenario, UTG+1 has either hit this flop exceptionally hard, or he has an underpair to the Q/a whiffed AK. In both of the latter cases, your bet will take the pot down. In the former case, you will find out immediately if you are beat, and it only cost you half the pot to do so. Because he stands to set up somewhere less than 12% of the time, your bet is clearly +EV. Also, because this player is unlikely to put another dime in the pot unless he has a hand that beats you, you should not check, because a free card could be potentially deadly to you. (i.e.: you catch an ace, he had a set on the flop already)

Alright, now lets examine the typical party fish, who is generally either a LAP, with or without dumb bluff/semi-bluff tendencies. Same hand:

You open raise you AK to 90 and get called by UTG only.

Flop (225) Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG's range of hands include any two suited, any two big cards, any PP, etc, etc. That issue alone is troublesome, because the flop will have hit him a decent percentage of the time.

However, that isn't the real issue here. The main problem with c-betting this type of opponent is your lack of FE. A c-bets main power comes from the fact that it should force your opponent to lay down a better hand a decent percentage of the time. At Party SNGs, expecially the low ones, our opponents' most common mistake is calling too often. This clearly doesn't bode well for c-betting as a general strategy.

We also encounter the type of alpha-donkey that will call your c-bet with ace high. This is a problem because you will now be forced to check the turn, and on a two flush board this essentially means you have given up the hand. (though thankfully, your donkish opponent probably won't notice)

Given the last point it is somewhat ironic that the absolute worst thing about c-betting in this case is it DOES fold out Ax a good percentage of the time. This is a terrible result, because if you had just allowed Villain to remain in the hand they would happily give you their whole stack on the turn if an ace happened to fall.

Another reason for not c-betting here is because it gives the aggro donkey with 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif an opportunity to set you all in, forcing you to fold the best hand. This is bad.

When people defend continuation bets, they are almost always using results oriented thinking. He folded, so my bet was good. Well, if he folded a dominated hand, the bet was anything but good, for obvious reasons.

So in closing, try checking the flop once in awhile. The nice thing is that when a typical Villain sees you raise PF and open check the flop HU, he'll put you on an absolute monster. This means that you are going to be bluffed off the pot a very small percentage of the time, and hey you can always bluff the turn.

There is way more to be written on this topic, and hopefully that sparks some interesting discussion. I'd write more but I want to go get lit. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nick M]

my opinion is simple...if you raised preflop and you get one caller who is in position I bet the flop 90% of the time when i don't hit. There are times I won't obvioulsy. I raise with Qs and the flop is KAx...but that should not even be thought of. I check fold there. But The point is you raised preflop, you gotta bet. You can't just give up. If you raise and get called by like half the table and flop nothing ahahha you check. Bluffing 2 people I like a completely rag flop that doesn't seem too connected. For instance 259 nice I bet. even say 589 isn't bad at all. Giving up is just not my idea of good strategy.

So it's a judgement call but biased to betting most of the time.

I think the trickest bet problem is the failed Blinds steal attempt. Yikes that's kinda of annoying.

[Phoenix1010]

Me too.

Edit: I posted before I read your post, because it's a lot to read. I just read it, excellent post.

-Phoenix

[MentalCombat]

dont forget about the times that you make them fold the best hand. Like if they called with Ax, hit X, and are afraid you hit the Q. In that instance, if you give them a free card, and the ace comes on the river, YOU lose all your chips.

I dont look at it as trying to "suck the most out of a hand", leave that to the ring game folk. I'm trying to build some breathing room for the bubble. If I bet, and he calls, hopefully I hit the turn. If I bet, and he re-raises me, well, thats poker.

[BDarch]

While I agree that it is bad to get a dominated hand to fold I disagree that its very bad in a sit and go. When you check a lot of flops after being the preflop agressor you give your opponent a chance to take the pot away from you. In a sit and go accumulating chips is extremely important. If you check the flop and then he bets out at you waht do you do? Do you call and possibly lose many more chips calling down a hand like AQ? You may even lose your entire stack if an A falls which could ahve been avoided if you had bet the flop. While continuation bets get dominated hands to fold a lot of the time they also make decisions simpler which is very important in these games with short stacks. Idk if what I said made any real sense or just seems like rambling but my main point is these bets make your decisions later in the hand easier and may save you chips.

[MentalCombat]

left out the fact that if you check, he has position, and will likely bet. to which you need to fold, and you just lost out on a pot.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
my opinion is simple...if you raised preflop and you get one caller who is in position I bet the flop 90% of the time when i don't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing from the way you've described this that most of the time you don't bet when you do hit. If so, this is incredibly exploitable behavior, long term. It's possible that you can get away with it in a lone SNG, but even then after a few steal attempts it probably becomes a little obvious. For example, against an opponent who continuation bets basically every time, it becomes a viable strategy to either c/r or just raise over (depending on relative position) the continuation bet for a super effective steal. In other words, you're sort of setting perceptive players to run huge bluffs on you.

Continuation betting often after whiffing is good, particularly when mixed with occasional betting after hitting, as well. But I think balance is key. I definitely feel that one of my leaks at the moment is a tendency to try and take away too many pots, and continuation betting too often is a part of this.

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my opinion is simple...if you raised preflop and you get one caller who is in position I bet the flop 90% of the time when i don't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing from the way you've described this that most of the time you don't bet when you do hit. If so, this is incredibly exploitable behavior, long term. It's possible that you can get away with it in a lone SNG, but even then after a few steal attempts it probably becomes a little obvious. For example, against an opponent who continuation bets basically every time, it becomes a viable strategy to either c/r or just raise over (depending on relative position) the continuation bet for a super effective steal. In other words, you're sort of setting perceptive players to run huge bluffs on you.

Continuation betting often after whiffing is good, particularly when mixed with occasional betting after hitting, as well. But I think balance is key. I definitely feel that one of my leaks at the moment is a tendency to try and take away too many pots, and continuation betting too often is a part of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

yer vastly over estimating your opponents, at least in the low level sngs. I repeatedly do sneaky things with my monsters (AA, KK, sets) after raising preflop - such as post oak bets to induce bluffing, or just checking in position.. and im always paranoid that someone is going to be paying attention and not give me the action i might get if I just bet it (which I do also, mind you, i dont slowplay everytime).. yet I am constantly surprised at how often i ended up taking some fish's stack who has a very weak hand..

as for continuation bet. If you check to someone in position on you after raising preflop - you better no what to do when he comes back with a 3/4 pot sized bet - which will happen a lot, whether he has something or not. At least if you bet you have some idea of where you are in the hand.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
If you check the flop and then he bets out at you waht do you do? Do you call and possibly lose many more chips calling down a hand like AQ? You may even lose your entire stack if an A falls which could ahve been avoided if you had bet the flop. While continuation bets get dominated hands to fold a lot of the time they also make decisions simpler which is very important in these games with short stacks. Idk if what I said made any real sense or just seems like rambling but my main point is these bets make your decisions later in the hand easier and may save you chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I check an xxx flop OOP HU and my opponent bets it, I'm folding 9 times out of 10. Do you really think a fish is capable of bluffing me off the best hand HU? Think about it:

A guppy is only capable of level 0 thinking. They look at their cards and bet when they hit, fold when they don't, and call with a made hand or a premium draw like AKo on a 259 rainbow board. (stangely this if often correct against a c-bettor with position) Against this type of fish, you're not going to be moved off the best hand.

You are even less likely to be moved off the best hand by an advanced stage fish. These players have read Super System and know that they can bet with nothing if they raised PF. Be AGGRESSIVE! These fish also often employ fuzzy level 1 thinking, but they f*ck the thought process up by trying to figure out what THEY would have if they took your line. Since advanced stage fish fish check their monsters and do occasionally bet with nothing after raising PF, there is no way they are betting with air on a 259 rainbow board after you checked PF. You clearly have AA. If you had AK you would bet. However, if you bet the flop the fish will think, "Why is he betting that, if he had a strong hand he would slowplay." I'll just call and see what he does next. No you check the turn because your opponent clearly has a better hand (when in reality he has sh*t) and your fish takes the pot down with a bet, congratulating himself on a great read.

Use the above example to determine for yourself whether it a better idea to check flop/lead turn or lead the flop with a whiffed AK.

[Nick M]

huh?? What are you talking about? We are talking about betting because you raised. You think I check when I hit something and bet when I hit nothing hahaha??? Cmon man give me a break. I BET ALL THE TIME, I bet trips, I bet flopped straights, I bet flsuh draws I bet no draws I bet everything. Sure I will slow play sometimes but VERY rarely is it when I've raised preflop. Most common tell is when someone raises, you call, everyone else folds. The flop is like Kxx and he checks to you hahahaha please dude you have a set of kings go away. I bet because I'm suppose to bet.