Second shortest stack on the bubble, shortest stack folding machine

[Phoenix1010]

Short stack has made it clear that he is going to fold every single hand until one of us busts. Am I obligated to play for third (unless I get a monster) and hope he doesn't double through when he's forced all-in in the blinds? Here's two hands I wasn't sure about folding:

1. Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t780)
BB (t2840)
UTG (t480)
Button (t3900)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Final Pot: t300

Easy fold here. But what range of hands should I be pushing in? Assume that I have some FE, but not very much.



2. Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t680)
Button (t2240)
SB (t280)
BB (t4800)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Final Pot: t300

Same deal, I think this is a fairly easy fold (or is it?), but what range should I be thinking about shoving in here. Again, assume big stack probably isn't going to go away (calls with top ~70%).

[Nick M]

i would fold both here. I generally don't like squeezing into money like that but if SS is giving it to me i'll take it. Easy money.

[Phoenix1010]

Bump.

[ilya]

I think if the SS is folding everything than these may both be pushes. I have not done the math, 'cos you can do it yourself &amp; stuff.
But here's something to consider when doing the math, I think there's a tendency to overestimate how loose the BB is gonna be in spots like that, because you don't want to feel like an idiot after busting on a steal. I just don't believe he's calling with top 70% in either of those spots. I don't even believe he's calling with top 50%.
Also, a lot of players are somewhat aware of 2-short-stacks bubble dynamics, and will tend to give you credit for a strong hand because "he'd be an idiot to push with crap when the other guy's about to bust."

The math may still indicate folds here, but I think my observations are valid irrespective of that.

[psyduck]

I agree. With blinds this small (comparatively), you still have some FE. I would push both of these. Also, if the blinds are going up soon, then you gotta remember that half your stack would be gone in the SB+BB in the next orbit.

Also consider the buy-in. At lower limits, some guys go into weaktight mode on the bubble too. This includes bigstacks (or is this right - are these guys willing to gamble more in order to get rid of a player???)

[Nick M]

where does it say the buy in??? Weak tight at the semi high levels, but not at the 10s and 20s, these players suck and do the most bone head plays. They love to give up.