Betting overs against a calling station. [Archive]

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hmkpoker

06-03-2005, 04:28 PM

I made a very obvious mistake here with the overs. UTG+1 ia a calling station. I thought I could knock him out of the pot, but that went wrong. Would you have folded the overs?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, BB raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB

meep_42

06-03-2005, 04:31 PM

I like how you played it.

Two overs, BD straight and flush draws, maybe clean up overcard outs, maybe get it HU for a free card (unlikely).

However... if he really is a calling station, is he 3-betting the flop with a 1-pair hand that you can beat. I think you might be able to find a fold on the turn if he's really that passive.

-d

Roland19

06-03-2005, 04:31 PM

Your flop play isn't good. Calling stations who 3-bet obviously have very strong hands; you could be drawing dead to a set on the flop. Raising the bet from the BB is not a good idea, as many will probably cold call. Just call the flop and reevaluate on the turn. I'd fold the turn unimproved if the calling station raised, as you're most likely up against at LEAST two pair. Seriously, I think the flop is a bad spot to raise overs.

ihardlyknowher

06-03-2005, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I made a very obvious mistake here with the overs. UTG+1 ia a calling station. I thought I could knock him out of the pot, but that went wrong. Would you have folded the overs?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, BB raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

With 2 overs and bd str8 and flush draws, you have about 6 outs. On the flop, that gives you and equity edge against 4 other players. I like the raise. If CO had called, I might have capped.

deception5

06-03-2005, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop play isn't good. Calling stations who 3-bet obviously have very strong hands; you could be drawing dead to a set on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously he can't know when he raises that he's going to get 3-bet...

sammy_g

06-03-2005, 04:37 PM

I don't like the flop raise. Against 5 opponents you're almost never ahead here, and you're probably drawing to about 3 outs. I think this is a marginal call at best getting 11.5:1 on the flop with terrible relative position to the flop aggressor. If someone raises behind you, it wrecks your odds. I would fold.

hmkpoker

06-03-2005, 04:37 PM

A piece of information I forgot to mention was that the hand before his, he auto raised his J3 against my KJ on a J-high board. Not necessarily that strong.

meep_42

06-03-2005, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If CO had called, I might have capped.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think capping here is a mistake, as a large number of cold-callers implies that you'll be dodging (or not have) the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. (which isn't terrible, since you'll have a redraw to the 2nd nut, but it could get expensive with a spade on the turn.)

-d

deception5

06-03-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If CO had called, I might have capped

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be excessive imho. You may have a tiny equity edge, but half of your outs are to top pair which will often not be enough. The raise was to eliminate players and get a slightly better position. With a calling station 3-betting and another player cold calling 3 there would be way too much chance your pair won't hold up.

I think this hand was played perfectly although I agree a turn fold wouldn't be bad here either.

sammy_g

06-03-2005, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With 2 overs and bd str8 and flush draws, you have about 6 outs. On the flop, that gives you and equity edge against 4 other players. I like the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
6 outs is too generous. With this many players in, there's a very good chance you are reverse dominated. The A /images/graemlins/spade.gif might be tainted. Also, your backdoor flush draw is pretty weak since you only have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
If CO had called, I might have capped.

[/ QUOTE ]
This sounds like chip spewing.

Sarge85

06-03-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If CO had called, I might have capped.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I speak for the board when i say -

Wha?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

stoxtrader

06-03-2005, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I made a very obvious mistake here with the overs. UTG+1 ia a calling station. I thought I could knock him out of the pot, but that went wrong. Would you have folded the overs?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, BB raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

With 2 overs and bd str8 and flush draws, you have about 6 outs. On the flop, that gives you and equity edge against 4 other players. I like the raise. If CO had called, I might have capped.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a tough hand, and looking at it from an equity perspective I think is a good approach.

6 outs might be slightly generous, but not too far off. the backdoor straight and flush outs are good, but are your over's worth 4 outs? i dont think that much vs 4 players. Still, ramming is ok, but thin.