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View Full Version : 5-handed calling standards at the 55s


dfscott
06-03-2005, 04:14 PM
I really don't have a feel yet for the 55s. Given the calling standards I've seen in the 33s, I would often push this, but being new to the 55s, I folded -- am I too tight? (Or maybe I too loose before /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

***** Hand History for Game 2146079611 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:12761267 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Thursday, June 02, 23:38:16 EDT 2005
Table Table 18970 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Dngr20KVolts ( $2855 )
Seat 3: dfscott1 ( $3160 )
Seat 4: Skooma ( $1090 )
Seat 5: onfire77 ( $1780 )
Seat 6: davidwhite1 ( $1115 )
Trny:12761267 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Qc 8d ]
davidwhite1 folds.
Dngr20KVolts folds.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not asking about Skooma's and onfire77's calling standards -- just the typical 55 player (and not curtains!)

J-Lo
06-03-2005, 04:26 PM
I'd say your stack is VERY healthy, and the blinds are small compared to your stack. That's why this is a pass. Someone enlighten me... i'm just recently getting outa my $1300 downswing. I've discovered, that people DO seem to care about your image. How have u amassed your stack? I think on fire's calling range should be small (AQ+, TT+) However, because skooma has 990 after posting, he might be willing to gamble it up (A2+, KT+, 22+). These two ranges might be a bit tight for the players in those position. With that range, pushing Q8o is marginally +$EV (.4%). I think i pass here-- especially if you've been stealing lately. your stack is in great shape, no need to jeopordize it, right guys?

MentalCombat
06-03-2005, 04:27 PM
I'm making the jump from 33 to 55 as well right now, only about 20 in, but I definately feel a big difference from the 33's. Maybe i'm just on a downswing but I feel that my pushes are being called a lot more.

MentalCombat
06-03-2005, 04:32 PM
I might try raising 3x bb here and calling a push by SB folding to push by BB.

From my perspective stealing from the BB here is huge, because if his stack shrinks a little bit, there is only really one stack you need to fear at all.

300 profit for 600 risk, I think that you will get FF at least twice for every time you get a push.

Unarmed
06-03-2005, 04:36 PM
You have 16 BB.
Chips = time.
Time = the luxury to not have to push ish like Q8o

Fold.

J-Lo
06-03-2005, 04:55 PM
But then the problem of "poth hoddds" arrised. Your raise to 600, SB fold BB pushes for 1800. There is 1800+600+100 in the pot=2500, you have to call 1200. Folding when gettin 2:1 could be disastrous-- there ARE players who are willing to get frisky w/ marginal hands in this position (AT+, 55+, KQ etc...) and folding vs hose hands w/ Q8 gettin 2:1 IS BHHHAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDD.

MentalCombat
06-03-2005, 04:58 PM
Define bad? For me, bad is not landing in the money... after betting 600 i still have a very healthy stack and I can steal back my losses later. that 600 bet was a "stab" at the blinds, and I dont care about my pot odds after, I'm more worried about keeping my healthy stack.

Maybe this is a leak in my game?

After I raise 600 and fold to an all in, the rest of my steals will be all in unless I land a monster.

dfscott
06-03-2005, 05:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Define bad? For me, bad is not landing in the money... after betting 600 i still have a very healthy stack and I can steal back my losses later. that 600 bet was a "stab" at the blinds, and I dont care about my pot odds after, I'm more worried about keeping my healthy stack.

Maybe this is a leak in my game?

After I raise 600 and fold to an all in, the rest of my steals will be all in unless I land a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love to play against people like this. They raise, I push any two from the BB, they fold. It's like a reverse blind steal.

The other fun ones are the SBs that complete when folded to them...

MentalCombat
06-03-2005, 05:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I love to play against people like this. They raise, I push any two from the BB, they fold. It's like a reverse blind steal.

The other fun ones are the SBs that complete when folded to them...

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe its an ugly leak in my game, or maybe it works against all but 2+2'ers. Like I said, you might steal back from me once, but not again, and chances are I've already stolen more or close to the amount of chipse you just "stole back".

Its not like I min raised (begging for all in /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Am I on crack people?

Voltron87
06-03-2005, 05:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Define bad? For me, bad is not landing in the money... after betting 600 i still have a very healthy stack and I can steal back my losses later. that 600 bet was a "stab" at the blinds, and I dont care about my pot odds after, I'm more worried about keeping my healthy stack.

Maybe this is a leak in my game?

After I raise 600 and fold to an all in, the rest of my steals will be all in unless I land a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love to play against people like this. They raise, I push any two from the BB, they fold. It's like a reverse blind steal.

The other fun ones are the SBs that complete when folded to them...

[/ QUOTE ]

when I see people completing their sb at 200 400 I just want to stab someone. there are people who do it ALL THE TIME.

dfscott
06-03-2005, 05:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I love to play against people like this. They raise, I push any two from the BB, they fold. It's like a reverse blind steal.

The other fun ones are the SBs that complete when folded to them...

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe its an ugly leak in my game, or maybe it works against all but 2+2'ers. Like I said, you might steal back from me once, but not again, and chances are I've already stolen more or close to the amount of chipse you just "stole back".

Its not like I min raised (begging for all in /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Am I on crack people?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying I'm doing it over and over in a single SnG. I'm only making it for the duration of the bubble or bubble+1, which is usually only about 3-4 defense opportunities. If I do it one time, I get 4BB. On a straight steal, you only win 1.5BB. If you stole enough times to equal my re-steal, I need to be shot.

Edit: Here's another thing to think about. If I'm a loose (bad) player, your 3BB raise might make me consider calling with a marginal hand (KQ or something) and see a flop. You really don't want that. If I have to make a decision right there for all my chips and know there's no way you're folding (since you're all-in), I'm much less likely to do this.

MentalCombat
06-03-2005, 05:35 PM
DF

Would you go so far as to say my 600 steal there is -EV? (against a random player?) Anyone else want to chime in?

If he does complete, and checks the flop, I'll put him all in there 100% of the time.

dfscott
06-03-2005, 05:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
DF

Would you go so far as to say my 600 steal there is -EV? (against a random player?) Anyone else want to chime in?

If he does complete, and checks the flop, I'll put him all in there 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. I think it can work, it just takes more work if he calls and then bets into you after the flop. I would prefer to exert maximum pressure pre-flop and put the decision to the BB.

OTOH, I definitely would not do it from the SB (unless I had a monster and wanted the all-in re-raise), since you wouldn't have post-flop position.

citanul
06-03-2005, 05:44 PM
df:

i'm going to agree here with unarmed. there's probably chips to be made and ev to be made by simply pushing v. calling standards of your opponents, but i don't think that this is a spot where pushing is right. do you need this pot? are the chips a significant boost to you or hindrance to your opponents?

you're going to get called only when you're behind, and that's a lot of variance to add to your game in order to pick up a few chips.

meh, curtains is probably not going to like this analysis.

if you must raise, i'd raise less than all in /images/graemlins/smile.gif

citanul

J-Lo
06-03-2005, 06:04 PM
Basic ICM-- if you plan on folding to push. Assuming he pushes top 25% of hands.

fold 28.5%
raise and win blinds 30%
raisd and fold to push 25.5%

so 25% of the time you get 25.5% of pool, and 75% u get 30%=28.75. So you gain an ICM of .25% by raising and folding if he pushes.


I'm too lazy to do ICM for call... but i think it'd favor a call after raising to 600

dfscott
06-03-2005, 06:37 PM
J-Lo is dead on here. Even if you want to fold to BB's re-raise all-in, you can't. So push first and take the additional FE.

Moonsugar
06-06-2005, 04:05 PM
I am Skooma.

I remember this tourney well. You were playing so many pots when I had a playable hand I was not getting to play anything. I think I busted out 4 or 5.

I think this is a fold, but I play too tight with a big stack.

durron597
06-06-2005, 04:12 PM
I would raise to 500 and fold to a push. Just don't do this too often /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Bigwig
06-06-2005, 04:13 PM
I'm raising to 400 or 500. SB pushes, I call. BB pushes, I fold.

I'm raising less than 3BB here with two kinds of hands: monsters and complete steals. Q8o vs. two players is a complete steal. However, the Q8 doesn't matter. I'm just as likely to steal here with 62o.

Bigwig
06-06-2005, 04:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Basic ICM-- if you plan on folding to push. Assuming he pushes top 25% of hands.

fold 28.5%
raise and win blinds 30%
raisd and fold to push 25.5%

so 25% of the time you get 25.5% of pool, and 75% u get 30%=28.75. So you gain an ICM of .25% by raising and folding if he pushes.


I'm too lazy to do ICM for call... but i think it'd favor a call after raising to 600

[/ QUOTE ]

What raise size did you use? 600? You shouldn't raise to 600 here--ever. 2BB, 2.5BB or pushing are the correct raises.

Newt_Buggs
06-06-2005, 04:24 PM
I just wanted to point out that some players will smooth call a 400-600 raise, although I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.

Bigwig
06-06-2005, 04:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to point out that some players will smooth call a 400-600 raise, although I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

With position, I never mind a smooth call, although I'd of course prefer a fold with Q8o.

curtains
06-06-2005, 05:16 PM
I might push but it would really depend on how I felt about the table. I think more often I would fold, although I strongly suspect that pushing is +EV, however in these situations bigger +EV spots should come up later.

Also at this point, your image really does come into effect, as the stealing you will do will often be just a few hands from now. They will remember if you have moved allin a lot in the last few hands.

Of course I've moved allin here many times, so it would really depend how I felt. I can guarantee that pushing is +EV here though, and it's possible I should be doing it every time, but I don't...

dfscott
06-06-2005, 05:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am Skooma.

I remember this tourney well. You were playing so many pots when I had a playable hand I was not getting to play anything. I think I busted out 4 or 5.

I think this is a fold, but I play too tight with a big stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no idea. I really felt like I needed to use my chip lead and be aggressive.

I think I've gotten a little too loose lately, which explains why I always get a big lead and then bust out 4th or 5th when people start feeling like calling.

Degen
06-06-2005, 06:39 PM
blinds are too small, big difference between 33 and 55 is lvl 5. in 33's this is push zone, but in 55's its only push zone if you have less than ~t1100. i muck here.


Andre

Moonsugar
06-06-2005, 07:14 PM
I was the SB. You got some kind of line on my play????

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Cry Me A River
06-06-2005, 07:25 PM
Is it just me, or is the prospect of playing a tournament against three 2+2'ers pretty much a nightmare scenario?

Bigwig
06-06-2005, 08:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I was the SB. You got some kind of line on my play????

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]What was your hand?

Newt_Buggs
06-06-2005, 10:37 PM
this is the problem with raising weak:

***** Hand History for Game 2165649713 *****
200/400 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 12867491) - Mon Jun 06 18:17:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 16929 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 3: NewtBuggs (3725)
Seat 5: TURTLE_TOP (1300)
Seat 6: asian2003 (2305)
Seat 7: a11anon (985)
Seat 10: Mulperi (1685)
TURTLE_TOP posts small blind (100)
asian2003 posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NewtBuggs [ Kd, Td ]
a11anon folds.
Mulperi folds.
NewtBuggs raises (400) to 400
TURTLE_TOP folds.
asian2003 raises (2000) to 2200
NewtBuggs folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2700
NewtBuggs balance 3325, lost 400 (folded)
TURTLE_TOP balance 1200, lost 100 (folded)
asian2003 balance 2805, bet 2200, collected 2700, net +500
a11anon balance 985, didn't bet (folded)
Mulperi balance 1685, didn't bet (folded)

I only miniraised because I wanted a call, giving me position to take down a 900 chips pot. Its just that it makes you so vulnerable to what happened here.

curtains
06-06-2005, 10:43 PM
It's fine, the large majority of opponents simply don't have the balls to make a move on you without a hand. Just because someone goes allin on you when you do this, doesn't mean its a bad play.