k9s bb 300/600

[bicyclekick]

5 handed.

PimPom! (one of the top players around) raises in the CO, decent enough player cc on button, i call K9d in the bb.

Flop J98 with 2 spades and no diamonds. I bet, pimpom! raises, button calls 2 cold, I call.

Turn 2 clubs. I check, pimpom! bets, button calls I call.

River 3 clubs. I check, pimpom! bets, button folds, I call.

Standard? Boring?

[Equal]

Yeah seems fairly standard if you know pimp is capable of firing a third barrel into two callers with a hand worse than yours. Of course that's with the regular big SH caveats of "depends on your previous history with said opponents, and recent hands, etc, etc."

[FrankTheTank]

Maybe lead the turn, although that may announce your hand, and the player you describe seems smart enough to pick up on that. If you think he's capable of raising again with a hand you beat, check-call is fine I suppose although it feels awful weak.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

yeah it seems pretty straightforward

[skp]

Big difference between having 1 and 2 opponents in a spot like this. The key difference is that Bimbo or whatever his name is kept the foot on the gas despite the fact that he has 2 opponents on a scary board and one of them coldcalled his flop raise no less.

While it's posible that you have the best hand, it's unlikely (also, if you are ahead, there are no doubt lots of cards on river that can beat you). I think you can count on the fact that you need to improve. You have 5 outs at most. Often, you will have only 2 or 3. There are 16 small bets in the pot when it is your turn to call and it costs you 2 small bets to see the river. It's barely a call at 5 outs. Other things that tip the scale in favor of folding is reverse implied odds (i.e. you hit the King or 9 of spades on the river) and also the fact that your turn call may see you also calling the river on the "it's just one more bet" theory.

I would fold here on the turn.

Make the flop a litle differnt like J95 with two spades and I may be swayed into calling or even playing it more aggressively on the flop.

I also think that checkraising or checkcalling the flop is better than betting out as a default but betting out as a way of mixing it up is certainly fine too.

[stoxtrader]

I would check this flop. what is the reason for the lead?

[Equal]

[ QUOTE ]
I would check this flop. what is the reason for the lead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the lead on the flop here because CO's likely raise will put the button to the test. The board is quite draw heavy. If the button folds, I can three-bet, lead the turn and then go from there.

[Stormwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
I would check this flop. what is the reason for the lead?

[/ QUOTE ]
im sure it was to shut the button out

[LarsVegas]

Agree with skp, fold the turn.

I think when ahead here, you are looking at averagely at least 10 outs against your holding. Likely hands you beat are OESD+one overcard (you COULD be blocking this with the king though), flushdraw with overcard(s) and possible gutshot or OESD to go... those kind of hands.

When behind, you are probably playing on average 3 to 3.5 outs (you could be drawing dead, or be up against KJ, KK or A9).

So with 8-to-1 on the turn here, I think you need to be ahead at very least, one in six to make it a call, considering that you will be taking by far the worst of it in the long run on the river too.

lars

[skp]

But if the button calls the raise (as he did), how come we are hanging around till the end?

Something doesn't jive: We are saying that betting the flop is good as it puts presure on the button once the "likely" PFR raise occurs. But if button coldcalls, we simply shrug it off and don't see it as added pressure on us????

I also don't like the idea to 3 bet the flop if pfr raises the flop and button folds. I think it's fine now and then but not as a default play. What are we trying to achieve with all that aggression out of position?

[1800GAMBLER]

In his shoes would YOU bet a hand that can't beat K9 on the turn?

[joker122]

am i missing something? i don't see what hand he bets the river with that you beat.

[Richie Rich]

[ QUOTE ]
am i missing something? i don't see what hand he bets the river with that you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
AKs/AKo/AQs/AQo/ATs/ATo/KQs/missed flush draw/maybe smaller PP

With 10BBs in the pot, villian's "possible bluff" only has to be successful 1 in 9 times to be +EV.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
am i missing something? i don't see what hand he bets the river with that you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
AKs/AKo/AQs/AQo/ATs/ATo/KQs/missed flush draw/maybe smaller PP

With 10BBs in the pot, villian's "possible bluff" only has to be successful 1 in 9 times to be +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

but you think he bets these hands into 2 players that have called all the way?

[FatalError]

cold caller had JTo and took it down?

[jogger08152]

Complex hand... if the button is a solid player, I like your call on the end:

Because it's a (barely) protected pot, both hero and button "know" that C/O can't be bluffing. Since cutoff knows you both know this (remember, we're stipulating button is a solid player here) and knows you're capable of folding, I think there's better than an 11% chance he's bluffing, and I like the call. I might bluff here 15-20% of the time.

Of course, if the button is a fish, C/O has you beat, and if button calls, at least one of them has you beat. But after button folds it's a good call.

[dankhank]

well, of course you _could_ fold on the turn.

the cold-caller is the real manipulator of this pot, but he is also the least likely to have a hand on the river (clear even before he folds). everything he does in the hand forces you to put him on overcards/draw. pim knows this too, which gives him more reason to fire on the river, since it both makes his hand look stronger (betting into two), and because he thinks there's an outside chance the button calls him with a weaker hand, driving your better hand out. plus the cold-caller has put so much essentially dead money in the pot - dead since you're so sure he's behind. but again, pim knows this too, so he's gunning for the same money (and thus has more reason to fire at it).

the real key is what pim's flop raising on iffy board standards are. players, even good ones, are different in how they handle this moment. some mostly raise when they're behind, some mostly raise when they're ahead. it was at this moment of truth that pim most revealed his hand, since his actions hadn't been fully clouded by the cold-callers "charitable" actions yet.

because pim has enough good reasons to be bluffing at this pot, and because nothing got there, i would call.

[Paluka]

I think the turn is a fold.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
cold caller had JTo and took it down?

[/ QUOTE ]

If by took it down you actually meant he folded on the river. Then yes, he did.

[Cactus Cactus]

Seems like most of your guys are saying that a turn fold should be the correct move. I think that pimpom (or whatever his name is) is playin' exactly to what "the gossip is thinking". I believe that leading out on the flop is the correct play so that the pre flop raiser will raise and force the button to drop. However the button calls which really I believe is the action that allows Pimpom to go ahead an bet the turn, hoping the following will get you to fold a better hand (your hand) (1) a continued turn bet (2) the button cold calling, and calling another turn bet.

It may look on the outside that you are beat, however you have got to think that Pimpom knows that if he can get you out of the pot, there is a good chance that a river bet will cause button to fold, because out of all 3 players it is most likely that button is drawing.

After continuing to bet on river. I have got to believe that Pimpom has a hand that beat you. The only reason why I would call river is if, he is bluffing in hoping that both of your were drawing. The pot is so big, that I think that this call is okay. However there are VERY very hands I think that PimPom would bet on the river that you could beat

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like most of your guys are saying that a turn fold should be the correct move. I think that pimpom (or whatever his name is) is playin' exactly to what "the gossip is thinking". I believe that leading out on the flop is the correct play so that the pre flop raiser will raise and force the button to drop. However the button calls which really I believe is the action that allows Pimpom to go ahead an bet the turn, hoping the following will get you to fold a better hand (your hand) (1) a continued turn bet (2) the button cold calling, and calling another turn bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, but PimPom knows that you know all this, so he can't be bluffing. But he knows that you know that he knows...

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhh, but PimPom knows that you know all this, so he can't be bluffing. But he knows that you know that he knows...

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/Sponger15aa/pbridge.jpg



ok ok last post of mine in this thread.

[Cactus Cactus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems like most of your guys are saying that a turn fold should be the correct move. I think that pimpom (or whatever his name is) is playin' exactly to what "the gossip is thinking". I believe that leading out on the flop is the correct play so that the pre flop raiser will raise and force the button to drop. However the button calls which really I believe is the action that allows Pimpom to go ahead an bet the turn, hoping the following will get you to fold a better hand (your hand) (1) a continued turn bet (2) the button cold calling, and calling another turn bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, but PimPom knows that you know all this, so he can't be bluffing. But he knows that you know that he knows...

[/ QUOTE ]

but you could go one step further, saying that because he knows that you know that he knows...which in another reason for him to bluff.