river play with QQ

[silkyslim]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, SB folds, Hero ???

[atnels]

I reraise. Did he call all the way to river with pocket 7's? If he did, you made a buddy. If he has J7, you have that beat.

[A_C_Slater]

Call. He could certainly have a only AJ,KJ,QJ, or even two pair that is counterfeited QQ far more than the 15 to 1 you need to call. Hell, I would call if there was only 5BB in the pot considering all those possibilities. If you don't want to be raised then why not check the river and induce a bluff?

[silkyslim]

nice i missed that and only called cuz im a scaredy. good reply thanks

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
I reraise. Did he call all the way to river with pocket 7's? If he did, you made a buddy. If he has J7, you have that beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this why you posted the hand? You were curious if you should reraise? No, no, no. Just call.

[cold_cash]

He's going to have a 4 in this situation lots, ergo I wouldn't raise.

[VBM]

calling's not a bad option. consider; how would you respond to a 3-bet?

[silkyslim]

why wouldnt he raise with a 4 on earlier streets?

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
why wouldnt he raise with a 4 on earlier streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he thinks slowplaying is super cool. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[atnels]

Until the river?

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
why wouldnt he raise with a 4 on earlier streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I can't say why for sure, but I could take a guess.

A lot of poor players will slowplay for as long as possible in a spot like this because they think it's clever, and also because they don't consider the fact that raising the turn will make them more money.

They think, "Oooh, sweet. I want to trap this guy for as much as I can, and since I'm clever I'll wait to spring my trap until the last possible instant, and get him for an extra bet on the end. He's such a tard, and I'm so cunning; I wish I could see the look on his face when he reluctantly throws in that extra bet."

Instead of:

"If I raise the turn with everyone already calling between us, I'll make more money because it's unlikely anyone will fold after they've put money in, and if they're drawing they won't call on the river if they miss. I don't really care about getting one extra bet from the pre-flop raiser, I want to get a bunch from everyone else, because obviously more is better."

That and they think slowplaying is super cool, like AC said.

And also, many, many people really suck at playing cards.

[atnels]

Unless Villain in recockulously passive, and was waiting to "spring his trips" until the third diamond didn't fall, I just don't know. I think at least 9/10 times you'll hear from a fish's flopped trips on the turn.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless Villain in recockulously passive, and was waiting to "spring his trips" until the third diamond didn't fall, I just don't know. I think at least 9/10 times you'll hear from a fish's flopped trips on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we would have seen a turn raise more often if more than one player was trapped inbetween. Considering that, and the other things I mentioned, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see MP3 turn over a 4.

I think you're 9/10 estimate is more than a little high also. At the very least I'm nearly positive this is a 4 more than 10% of the time.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless Villain in recockulously passive, and was waiting to "spring his trips" until the third diamond didn't fall, I just don't know. I think at least 9/10 times you'll hear from a fish's flopped trips on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If his reasoning is along the lines of what cold cash stated then he won't raise the turn because he doesn't want to lose that stupid fish SB. Plus to some coolness points are more EV+ than actual $

[@bsolute_luck]

too random of a bet IMO. i call. HU, you get more info by making him show his hand than 3-betting and having him muck or getting capped or 3-betting and losing anyways.

[iNsChris]

God its tricky, If i have no reads i guess i call..

But if i have reads, I'm probably raising.

Random bet, So add to notes if he has 77 /images/graemlins/smile.gif I just walked into a hand a bit like this...

Guy played 77 to the river and hit, Noted and buddied up.

[shadow29]

I think that 3-betting this hand sucks.

[AmarilloJim1]

For those that think calling this bet is the right move, would raising be appropriate if you had a LAG read (value bet)?

[wireMan]

Why is playing 77 until the river so horrible here?
Preflop - only one raise. Could be AK, AQ, and possibly a whole lot of other possibilities in villian's eyes with the pfr coming from the BB.
Flop - all three are under cards to the 7's. Why not raise the flop with 7's? Some players aren't aggressive.
Turn - Villian thinks, "#$@**@, something above my 7's. PFRer has to have AK or AQ, ya, that's what he has and no one else has raised yet, so my 77 is probably still good. BUT I'm chicken and don't want to raise, JUST IN CASE."
River - YES. Just what the doctor ordered. This pot is mine.

I don't think pocket 77's in this situation is that bad until the river.

[milesdyson]

What does LAG mean? When you have a read on someone, you try to equate the read in mathematical terms by putting the guy on a range of probable hands. To do this, you basically have to see him do something in another hand (ie. wait until the river to raise QJ on J9236r board against a preflop raiser).

So you assess his action based on that previous action, and you put him on some hands. Say you believe he would be raising you on the river with any J or any 7, and that you would have heard from him earlier (flop or turn), if he had a 4. That's your read - that's why you reraise. You don't reraise because he has a Taz icon.

I also agree that villain's play is fine in this hand.

[AmarilloJim1]

Lol...

Thanks...I just read the value betting chapter of SSH this morning...

That is good advice...thanks.

[kiddj]

Hero calls and: kicks the dog when MP3 shows his 77 or JJ OR kisses the dog when he flips ove AJ.

[iNsChris]

Or preflop he thinks uh ho..

AA KK QQ JJ TT 99 88 - I'm beat?

Chasing 22-1 is strange.

[doubleplus]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want to be raised then why not check the river and induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there was no guarantee that any of them would bet - they'd been chasing him since the flop. And do you mean he should just call if someone does bet behind him? If you're going to call a bet, you might as well bet out yourself. The river was a value bet. The bets he loses by getting raised by an actual better hand here pale in comparison to the bets he loses when it ends up getting checked around.

That being said, I'm guessing the guy was (badly) slowplaying 4's. /images/graemlins/smile.gif