new limit, confused about this one

[irishpint]

no reads, haven't been here long. table is on the LAG side.

pf: good raise or bad? i figure i want to get some $ in the pot for my draw and figure im not going to get 3bet
flop: i didnt want to shut them out by 3betting, should i have? i think i should have capped, because no one is folding to that last little bit.
turn: now a 7, ace or diamond gives me the hand so i raise only to get 3bet.
river: good/bad call with top pair?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (22.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 24.75 BB

[sublime]

preflop is so close it doesnt matter, i tend to limp here and rais in the CO if i can get the button. no sense splitting hairs over the raise.

gotta cap the flop and the turn an d river are fine.

[Pov]

PF: I wouldn't normally raise pre-flop in this situation, but if your opponents are LAGgy then they probably don't have a better Ace so I guess it can't be too bad.

F: I think you go ahead and 3-bet. A bet and a raise and a call from the pre-flop raiser should pretty much fold anything BB and MP1 could have. Since they call 2, I think at least one of them would probably have called 3. After you saw all 5 were going to play a cap is mandatory here IMO.

T: Don't raise this. MP2's flop 3-bet makes it extremely unlikely you are ahead here. None of the outs you've picked up are very good and even if they were you would still be wrong to raise IMO. You are a 2:1 dog to JT, a 3:1 dog to a set. Our cold callers could easily have hands like 98 and KQ that make your A and 7 outs no good. You're still drawing to your flush is what I'm trying to say.

R: You have very little chance of winning here but the pot is huge so you call one more bet since it is virtually impossible MP1 will raise.

[Disconnected]

With no reads on the table, I don't think I'm raising this on the button, but I don't think it's terrible.

Since you did raise pre-flop, I think you need to 3-bet the flop with an overcard on your flush draw. That perhaps buys you a free card on the turn, if you would like it.

On the turn, since there are so many players, I wouldn't raise -- I don't think your TP is good, you need the flush to hit on the river.

On the river, call is good -- you're likely not taking the pot, but it's huge. Maybe MP2 is really happy with a pair of jacks. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[johnc]

Preflop: I like the raise.
Flop: Capping this one.
Turn: Not fond of the raise here, I believe most of your flush outs are live but the aggressive betting indicates at least a couple of your opponents made their hands ie 2-pair, small set, maybe str8.
River: you're married to this pot so call is ok but your chances are not good. Side note: I see MP1 as probably on the same draw as you (his chances may have really sucked but a pot this big you don't need a huge chance to make a call profitable so why did he fold?!?!).

[irishpint]

good eye on this one. i was up against a set of 2s, so my ace outs were clean but my 7 did nothing for me. A river flush would have been great, but alas. I think the PF raise was fine, i should have capped the flop when it got back to me 3bet, and i should not have raised the turn. and the river call was fine, since my poor play had made the pot large enough. Thanks for the imput!

[milesdyson]

Not capping this flop is a pretty good-sized mistake, and usually a flop 3-bet means business, so the turn raise is questionable (if MP2 is crazy, then by all means raise). You said the table was on the "lag side," but nothing specific about the players.

And the river. I want to fold because I don't think we're good here 1 in 25 times, but of course I would make the crying call and lose my BB.

[sublime]

i think the turn raise is ok btw, the pot is big and just because you got 3-bet on the flop doesnt mean your ace is no good. the times it is good you want to protect you hand from gutters and oesd's. sure occasionaly you are against a set, but your not drawing dead and a lot of times are up against JT etc and 'wont' be 3-bet fearing AA.

of coure if you had capped the flop and he still lead the turn, things would be different.

of course, i am crazy

[mmmmmbrother]

i would have pumped the flop more? you have a big draw and it looks like youll get huge action.
good raise on the turn but maybe even cap this? you still have 9 diamonds. it looks like one of the two has either AJ or A10, so your seven might not be good.
a call on the turn is good because of the huge pot?

[scotty34]

With 5 players calling on the flop, and a draw to the nuts you definetly have the equity to jam it. I can understand only calling the first two bets as you don't want to face the field with 3 cold. Once it is 3-bet though, feel free to cap it.

It is really obvious from the flop action that MP2 really likes his hand. I don't think your top pair is good here, and that raise probably isn't a good idea. I would be calling here, and hoping to hit my flush on the river. I still may not raise this river even if a 7 hit.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
i was up against a set of 2s, so my ace outs were clean but my 7 did nothing for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about this again.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
good eye on this one. i was up against a set of 2s, so my ace outs were clean but my 7 did nothing for me. A river flush would have been great, but alas. I think the PF raise was fine, i should have capped the flop when it got back to me 3bet, and i should not have raised the turn. and the river call was fine, since my poor play had made the pot large enough. Thanks for the imput!

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize an A would have made him deuces full and you still lose right?

[Fantam]

I dont think the PF raise was a good idea. Ax(s) is basically a speculative hand, which you should be hoping to see the flop for as cheaply as possible.

I think 3-betting the flop would have been fine. I dont think that you would have been folding many, if any players out. The flush and straight draws and anyone with a better A than yours would probably still call. (With the exception of A8 or A9). Capping the flop would also have been fine, as you would have been building up the pot to exploit your equity edge.

I would not have raised MP2 on the turn though. His flop 3-bet suggests (in the absence of any reads) that he could easily have 2 pair or a set. So I would have called his turn bet and called the river unimproved.

I think you have to call the river bet, because the pot is now huge, and its possible that you might win.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
the times it is good you want to protect you hand from gutters and oesd's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately in this case the turn raise offers 15.75:2 ~ 8:1 so it doesn't do much to protect us because of all the flop action. It does hurt the gutshot, but looking at likely gutshot draws such as KT or QT or QJ then they're still getting their odds if you add in their trips and two-pair outs against you. Well, the more that I think about it, that is somewhat cancelled by the fact that some of their outs are diamonds so maybe you really do hurt the gutshot. Still - I don't think the raise helps us enough to be worth it on this hand. I'm not trying to say it's a terrible play or I wouldn't have done it some percentage of the time in the heat of the moment - just trying to outline my reasoning.

[sublime]

nice post pov-

i just am not quick to discount the fact that my hand is good a decent % of the time and another % of the time we are talking about 12 outs or so, along with the protection and value if they call incorrectly with gutters etc. just because they 'think' thier outs are good, doesnt make the raise bad. if they fold, good. if they call, good. if we get three bet, we make a post about it and sublime gets to look like hw knows what he talking about. which is becoming apparent that he doesnt the more i type.......

[sublime]

ohh, dont forget 98