Who doesn't push QQ here?

[CarlSpackler]

I limped with qq, because just about every hand with early limpers/min-raisers was raised big from behind thus far in the tourney. I was trying to induce a raise from one of the players left to act behind me, so I could reraise them big btf. There was a lot of early aggression at this table. KAMPLEE insta-bet the pot on the flop after it was checked around to him.

33sng - bb t30

Table Table 22375 (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: Hero (765)
Seat 2: KAMPLEE (1330)
Seat 4: BMAR1 (1770)
Seat 5: min0440 (830)
Seat 7: wizardmickey (1215)
Seat 8: LIGHTING_11 (1100)
Seat 10: Larry_Mc (990)
LIGHTING_11 posts small blind (15)
Larry_Mc posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
Hero calls (30)
KAMPLEE calls (30)
BMAR1 folds.
min0440 folds.
wizardmickey folds.
LIGHTING_11 calls (15)
Larry_Mc checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
LIGHTING_11 checks.
Larry_Mc checks.
Hero checks.
KAMPLEE bets (120)
LIGHTING_11 folds.
Larry_Mc calls (120)
Hero raises (735) to 735
Hero is all-In.

[NYCNative]

I like limp-reraise with Kings or Aces. Not so sure about Queens...

[Karak567]

Flop - good push IMO. Draw heavy board and your hand needs protecting. If the villains are LAG, they will probably call.

Pre-flop - Eeek, I never slow-play QQ, KK or AA in a 30 + 3. You get so much action with people calling your raises anyways, there really is no reason to slow play it. If you slow play it you have to start relying on set value more than overpair value and that isn't good, since you will only hit your set once out of every eight times.

[MentalCombat]

I have a sneaky feeling that KAMPLEE had 10J?

[Psy_Mike]

I really don't like the check on the flop. You're giving a free card to a potential flushdraw or straight draw which would hurt your three queens and your stack quite badly. You have to make the draws pay! I would rather win the hand right there than give away free cards in that situation. Ofc if he has a straight there's nothing you can do about it...

I would probably bet about the size of the pot, perhaps a bit above since it's so early and draws might follow you when it's cheap. Perhaps $150-$200? All in all, I really don't like giving away free cards at all :/

But perhaps you did have a monster read on him and knew with all your heart that he would bet at that point though, but I would still be carefull /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
I never slow-play QQ, KK or AA in a 30 + 3.

[/ QUOTE ]I dunno about the 33s in general, but if you are at a table where nearly every pot is raised, limping UTG with a monster (and I don't include Queens in this) is a great way to extract chippage when it gets raised and you come back with a huge reraise. It also screams "I have a monster."

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like the check on the flop. You're giving a free card to a potential flushdraw or straight draw which would hurt your three queens and your stack quite badly. You have to make the draws pay! I would rather win the hand right there than give away free cards in that situation. Ofc if he has a straight there's nothing you can do about it...

I would probably bet about the size of the pot, perhaps a bit above since it's so early and draws might follow you when it's cheap. Perhaps $150-$200? All in all, I really don't like giving away free cards at all :/

But perhaps you did have a monster read on him and knew with all your heart that he would bet at that point though, but I would still be carefull /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I was multi-tabling, so I missed a couple of hands, but up to that point I didn't see a single flop checked all the way through. That's why I went for the check-raise otf.

[Myst]

Raise preflop.

Check is fine if opponents are ultra-agressive.

All in on the flop is a must on this draw heavy board.

[Always Rockets]

PF limp is a scary play...I never do it. Your flop push is good...with all the draws on the board, you should try to get all of your chips in the middle while you are ahead...also you have to recognize that because of your limp, someone could very easily be in the pot with J-T...

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop.

Check is fine if opponents are ultra-agressive.

All in on the flop is a must on this draw heavy board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why a check on the flop is acceptable but a limp PF isn't...

[nokona13]

If the table's really been that ultra aggressive with limpers in EP, then I guess the limp rr is alright. I wouldn't do it, but hey, I'm new...

On the flop, I really don't like the check with one left to act. If there were four in and none were blinds, a check seems fine here, but as the 3rd to act out of four, you really can't take the risk of it checking around with all those draws in there. Just bet the pot, push if raised. If he's got JT, hope you fill up...

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
I was multi-tabling, so I missed a couple of hands, but up to that point I didn't see a single flop checked all the way through. That's why I went for the check-raise otf.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Q, 8, 9 ]
LIGHTING_11 checks.
Larry_Mc checks.
Hero checks.
KAMPLEE bets (120)
LIGHTING_11 folds.
Larry_Mc calls (120)
Hero raises (735) to 735
Hero is all-In.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one raised preflop, there are 4 to the flop and 2 of them have already checked when it's to you to act. Not a good spot for a CR. Others have said that you want to bet this flop to charge the draws- true. You also want to bet to get value from your huge hand here. Too often, people check their monsters when their opponents are on a draw (often a straight draw which the monster hand may not see)- this misses value on one of your two opportunities to get the most from your hand. If this get's checked through when an opponent is on a draw, you've now limited yourself to only one opportunity to collect chips (turn) while your opponent is willing to pay on that draw on the flop and turn. On the river your drawing customer is no longer willing to pay (only collect). You also miss value from opponents willing to pay on all streets with weaker made hands. In $33 SnG's you'll generally collect more chips when you just bet out your big hands.

Preflop, this should be raised. I understand you are looking for a check-raise here, but betting out makes the hand much easier to play. Additionally, although you've read this table as aggressive, $33's by nature are often loose/passive preflop and getting a CR opportunity is not a sure thing.

[valenzuela]

limping is like the worst play ever, never limp QQ, absolutely never. I cant think of a single case where limping QQ is the best play. QQ is way to strong to be limped for set value but not strong enough to give free cards.

[SNOWBALL138]

OP said that kamplee was an auto bettor. hence the check-raise.

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was multi-tabling, so I missed a couple of hands, but up to that point I didn't see a single flop checked all the way through. That's why I went for the check-raise otf.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Q, 8, 9 ]
LIGHTING_11 checks.
Larry_Mc checks.
Hero checks.
KAMPLEE bets (120)
LIGHTING_11 folds.
Larry_Mc calls (120)
Hero raises (735) to 735
Hero is all-In.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one raised preflop, there are 4 to the flop and 2 of them have already checked when it's to you to act. Not a good spot for a CR. Others have said that you want to bet this flop to charge the draws- true. You also want to bet to get value from your huge hand here. Too often, people check their monsters when their opponents are on a draw (often a straight draw which the monster hand may not see)- this misses value on one of your two opportunities to get the most from your hand. If this get's checked through when an opponent is on a draw, you've now limited yourself to only one opportunity to collect chips (turn) while your opponent is willing to pay on that draw on the flop and turn. On the river your drawing customer is no longer willing to pay (only collect). You also miss value from opponents willing to pay on all streets with weaker made hands. In $33 SnG's you'll generally collect more chips when you just bet out your big hands.

Preflop, this should be raised. I understand you are looking for a check-raise here, but betting out makes the hand much easier to play. Additionally, although you've read this table as aggressive, $33's by nature are often loose/passive preflop and getting a CR opportunity is not a sure thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would you say in any QQ scenario similar to this, in a 33-sng, that it's virtually never a good option to go for a reraise preflop? I think I now understand why, and I agree with you. I usually always (>90%) bet this pre-flop, but I didn't in this situation due to the reasons I specified in my OP.

As for the check-raise on the flop, KAMPLEE had been aggressive thus far, and I had seen him bet when last to act a couple times previously. He also had bet a straight draw earlier. I thought that he would try and steal the pot, even if he had nothing, due to the fact that he was last to act and 2 of his 3 opponents were in the blinds and definitely appeared weak (as did I). This is probably a way too fancy read and play to be trying to make in a 33-sng, isn't it?

[beeyjay]

I dont think its fancy. When there are 4 to the flop and there are stragith and flush draws you have to bet. Check raise is just not the play in this situation. If you think the bet is coming from kamplee that means your check raise is not going to shut out any other players and thus everybody who calls is going to be getting better odds to call you and youre making it more correct for them to do so.

[ilya]

Not sure about the PF limp. However, the idea that there's something *intrinsically* bad about the play is absurd. If your opponents are agressive enough that your QQ will be a big favorite over their raising range, and loose enough that they will call your re-raise with too many hands, it certainly can be a good play. It's perfectly possible to imagine a situation where it would be a good idea to limp-reraise with 88: you limp in EP, and it's folded to a wild player whose raising & re-raise calling range is 22+, any broadway. He raises, and everyone folds to you. Obviously, you should re-raise all-in.
My point is, it's bad poker to follow hard&fast rules like "only limp-reraise with AA." A good play is one that exploits your specific opponents to the max, not one that follows some abstract guideline.


EDIT: For some reason I thought that you were 2nd to act on the flop. I like betting better in your later position, BUT I still think trying for a check-raise is best if you think there's a good chance the last guy will bet. It's less likely that the check-raise attempt will succeed, but if he does bet, you get a better deal than you would have had you been in 2nd position. First, you get to see how the 2 players who checked up front react to the bet. Second, you are in a position to trap them for more chips. They may well call with a draw, hoping that no one behind them will raise. If you had check-raised in EP, you would probably have lost those bets.

On the flop, I like going for the check-raise. You can't really put anyone on a hand since you didn't raise preflop, so if you bet out here and get called, you have no idea where you are. Your opponents will have an absurd number of outs: the outs that will actually make them the best hand, plus the outs that will look so scary to you as to force you to fold.
On the other hand, if you check, one of your opponents will probably bet. Since they are agressive, they are more likely to semi-bluff than to take a free card with a flush and/or straight draw. If they flopped a strong hand like a smaller set, two pair, or a pair+straight/flush draw, they will be less likely to trap than usual because they will feel the need to protect their hand. Even if someone flopped a straight, you have 7 outs on the turn and 10 outs on the river to a full house. Perhaps most importantly, check-raising all-in eliminates your positional disadvantage. No longer will anyone be able to bet you off the best hand on the turn after a scare card falls.
If it's checked around, that's not great, but it's not a total catastrophe as the pot is not very large, and it reduces the possibility that you are already behind (if someone had flopped a straight, they would probably have bet to extract money from players with draws and/or to protect their hand). Once you see the turn card, you can decide how best to proceed. If it's bad, you can check & fold, or maybe call a small bet to try and hit the full house on the river. If the turn card is safe, you can bet out with much more confidence.

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think its fancy. When there are 4 to the flop and there are stragith and flush draws you have to bet. Check raise is just not the play in this situation. If you think the bet is coming from kamplee that means your check raise is not going to shut out any other players and thus everybody who calls is going to be getting better odds to call you and youre making it more correct for them to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not worried about the odds my oppenents get if KAMPLEE bets, because I'll rr allin. What I now believe, after reading NegativeEV's post, is that I'm overthining things at the 33-sng level. I need to play more straight forward on the flop, in situations like this, at this point in a 33-sng. Can this type of move, in this particular scenario, be profitable in the high stakes sng's?

[willie]

i push it

but only after i raise to 90 preflop /images/graemlins/grin.gif