wish i won this big pot, would you have played differently?

[swatkaizen]

10 Handed, new to game, after a few hands table appears loose agressive

Preflop: I'm UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I limp, 3 more limpers, button raises, BB & limpers call

Flop: (12.5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
check to last limper, he bets, button raises, BB folds, rest call

Turn: (11.25BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
checked to button, he bets, all call

River: (16.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
checked to button, he bets, I fold

would you have played this differently?

[eleventy]

Fold preflop

[Petertjem]

In my opinion, you're making two mistakes.

first, you call preflop from early position with a mediocre hand.

second, on the flop you're getting 5-1 on the pot. You only have a gutshot straight draw which at least needs 10-1.

So, get out before the flop!

[bozlax]

One, I don't limp ace-rag suited from EP/MP. A recent review of hands, prompted by a post in micros, has convinced me that this is a money-loser for me.

Two, I fold the flop when it's 2 to me. My ace has a crappy kicker, I need runner-runner for the flush, and the best I can hope for from my deuce outs (my "best" chance on this flop) is a chop.

Other than that, I'd have played it the same.

[brazilio]

Actually, he's getting 16.5:2, and he's got an overcard, a backdoor flush draw, and a gutshot. I put his viable outs at about 6. Coldcalling two on the flop isn't bad, although I'm going to be pissed if the last limper 3-bets.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
on the flop you're getting 5-1 on the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's getting immediate odds of 15.5-to-2 on the flop.

[brazilio]

You're discounting your gutshot because of a chop? That's ridiculous.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
first, you call preflop from early position with a mediocre hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Calling in early position pre-flop with a mediocre hand is not in and of itself a mistake.

It IS a mistake in this particular situation because Hero's read on the table is loose/aggressive. You want to play speculative hands (like Axs) from EP in games where it's likely that you'll have several callers and there i little chance of the pot being raised.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
second, on the flop you're getting 5-1 on the pot. You only have a gutshot straight draw which at least needs 10-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh? He's getting 1:8 immediate odds, and better if a few more come along, not to mention implied odds if he hits. (Note that with cold-callers, he would have ended with 1:10 on the flop.)

He's got 4 clean outs to the nuts, maybe 1.5 for the BDNFD, and let's discount his aces to half an out, for a total of 6 outs. He only needs 1:7 to call this, so peeling one off seems like a no-brainer.

[crunchy1]

Each time you're faced with a call you're getting good odds on your money but the problem lies with the fact that you're never closing the action. Putting more than 2 bets on the flop and 1 bet on the turn would be really bad. I don't mind peeling on the flop. I do think you're taking an unneccessary risk calling the turn bet when you've lost your best outs to the nut flush and there are still 3 players left to act behind you that have been calling bets/raises the whole way.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
10 Handed, new to game, after a few hands table appears loose agressive

[/ QUOTE ]

Given this read....
[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: I'm UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I limp,

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be debatable.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (12.5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
check to last limper, he bets, button raises, BB folds, rest call

[/ QUOTE ]

Your action is a little hard to follow, but if I'm reading this right it's like 7.5 to 1 when it gets to you. Based on the table, seems like a pretty easy call for your Gutshot, and BKD Flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (11.25BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
checked to button, he bets, all call


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy call

[ QUOTE ]

River: (16.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
checked to button, he bets, I fold

would you have played this differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I think you did ok. PF you could debate, but if you handle yourself find Post Flop I wouldn't sweat it to much.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Petertjem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on the flop you're getting 5-1 on the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's getting immediate odds of 15.5-to-2 on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ofcourse, I mean 7.5-1. But I wouldn't count 1,5 out for the overcard (because of the weak kicker) in my case. Or is this wrong?

[brazilio]

No, you're right, giving .5 outs to your overcard is probably being generous. However, that nut backdoor flush draw is at least 1.5 outs, and probably a bit more if you do hit, that field is huge and you're in position to trap for a lot of bets on the river.

[swatkaizen]

thanks guys!!

on the flop, i was thinking that i had the gutshot (4outs), the backdoor nut flush (1.5 outs), maybe .5 outs for the ace (maybe that's generous)

so 5.5-6 outs, i need about 7:1 on my money. i'm getting 15.5:2. so that's good and the implied odds on the turn with 2 betters behind me are very good, right?

i guess the last limber could have reraised, i should have considered that

preflop: i was thinking that it was loose so it was ok, but yeah, i might have been more careful in an aggressive game

[bozlax]

Ridiculous? The math says that a chop reduces your pot and implied odds by half. How do you account for that? And given the number of players that'll stay in with ace-rag preflop, you're willing to ignore that there may be another ace out there?

[jskills]

Some people like to fold preflop here. I go back and forth with Axs UTG. I'm pretty sure the concensus is to fold preflop.

You don't have the odds to call the flop bet with your gutshot straight - so fold here too.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]

You don't have the odds to call the flop bet with your gutshot straight - so fold here too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-evaluate
Consdier Back Door and Implied Odds.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Ridiculous? The math says that a chop reduces your pot and implied odds by half. How do you account for that? And given the number of players that'll stay in with ace-rag preflop, you're willing to ignore that there may be another ace out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing he chops with is another A5. There is only a 34 on the board. If a 2 falls, the board is 234Q and another A has a 3-outer to a chop.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
No, you're right, giving .5 outs to your overcard is probably being generous. However, that nut backdoor flush draw is at least 1.5 outs, and probably a bit more if you do hit, that field is huge and you're in position to trap for a lot of bets on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

But regardless, we don't believe he has the odds to call the flop for two bets here, do we?

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
Ridiculous? The math says that a chop reduces your pot and implied odds by half. How do you account for that? And given the number of players that'll stay in with ace-rag preflop, you're willing to ignore that there may be another ace out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the point is that the likelihood of having a split pot is quite low.

[spoohunter]

Three betting the flop has merits.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Three betting the flop has merits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck. Why? What are the merits?

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
Three betting the flop has merits.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to need to explain yourself for this statement to have merit.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, you're right, giving .5 outs to your overcard is probably being generous. However, that nut backdoor flush draw is at least 1.5 outs, and probably a bit more if you do hit, that field is huge and you're in position to trap for a lot of bets on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
But regardless, we don't believe he has the odds to call the flop for two bets here, do we?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's definitely got the immediate odds to call 2-cold on the flop. My problem is that he's not closing the action and, since he's new to the table (and the slight read he has on the table suggested it's aggressive), getting 3-bet would really suck.

He's also likely not going to be closing the action on the turn either if he's forced into a second call. Getting check-raised after he calls a LP turn bet would suck worse than getting 3-bet on the flop.

[bozlax]

Misread the board. My bad. No split.

[meep_42]

I agree with Sarge.
I'd limp this at 2/4 most of the time, but i've started folding low suited aces up front at 3/6. I don't think it's a terrible mistake to limp.

3-betting the flop isn't spectacular. There is an example in SSH like this one (overcard, gutshot, BD flush) that advises a 3-bet, but the key to that decision is that Hero is on the button and can possibly slow down his opponents or get a free card. 3-betting here doesn't help, as your opponents aren't folding and act after you on the turn, where your check gives you away.

-d

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]


But regardless, we don't believe he has the odds to call the flop for two bets here, do we?

[/ QUOTE ]

His flop call is fine by me. His turn call, I'm much more liable to think UI he should fold there. An aggressive table gets me very nervous when you have tons of flop coldcallers and we're in terrible position relative to the bettor. What concerns me more is getting stuck calling bets one at a time on the turn.

[pokerstudAA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Three betting the flop has merits.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to need to explain yourself for this statement to have merit.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Agreed - 3 betting seems silly and looks alot like spewing. But Calling 2 cold does not seem attractive either. Getting 15:2 immediate odds. Hero has 6 outs at best and is not drawing to the nuts. Also - Hero could get 3 bet. Once he calls two cold on the flop he is committed to see the gutshot until teh river and pay off a better ace if it hits - right?

If three betting would fold an AJ, AK, AT, or even A4, A3 it would be quite valuable and could steal the pot - folding a better ace here could be worth 2 more outs in a big pot. I think this is extremely player dependant. The three bet might even get a free river card out of position at a discounted price - with everyone afraid of the check raise. Seems silly but there may be hidden benefits to three betting the flop. Dont play A5s out of position.
I am really not sure.

Preflop - I am not limping that first in at a loose agg. table. A9s A8s I limp - ATs+ raise. A5s will get you in way to many tricky situatiuons - first in - out of position.